Lift

[Steve]

I'll apologize for my own remarks, which I readily do now. I'm certain Steve quoted me accurately, although I don't recall the context of the statement. We were engaged in an hour long conversation, and many topics involving downtown were discussed. That said, the comment was not intended to slam any section do downtown, specially not Deep Deuce. Fact is, the success of DD is the only reason The Edge, Steelyard, and 10th & Shartel will exist. DD, and the thousands of stakeholders who made it happen, set the tone for being able to justify other housing in downtown. The strong core that we all want requires all areas to be successful and ultimately be one seamless story of the high quality of life that many of us have only dreamed amount up till now. Regardless of the context, my statement was inappropriate and I apologize. I will gladly build in DD if the right opportunity becomes available. In the meantime, I'll stick to development and stay out of politics.

The question was "what made you choose this site?" It's a standard question I ask. I will note Gary's response was more about talking up Midtown rather than dismissing another district. And his response was not unlike responses given by other developers. When I broke the story about The Metropolitan in July, John Gilbert with the Bomasada Group made a comment similar to what Gary said, except it was promoting the east side of downtown as the only good spot left.
To quote:
Gilbert, who presented the project Thursday to the Downtown Design Review Committee, said the site for The Metropolitan, NE 6 and Oklahoma Avenue, is the last best remaining site downtown for new housing.

The property is immediately east of Ninth Street, home to a popular mix of restaurants and shops. The southeast corner of the property is home to a pocket park built by the Automobile Alley Association.

"We like this site better," Gilbert said. "We are within walking distance of Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Automobile Alley and MidTown. We have great access to I-235 and 10th Street. We really have great access to everywhere in the city."


Not sure I remember the folks who participate in this website making a fuss over that. But you guys are gonna do what you're gonna do....

[Teo9969]

Yes. The Milhaus folks are highly talented entrepreneurs. We complement each other well, and I expect us to press each other to build projects that OKC will be proud of...in all areas of downtown.

Nobody brought it up, but I was excited to see this quote:

“We're looking for other neighborhoods for sure,” Leazenby said. “We are committing to more than just this one project. But we like Midtown first because of all the energy, and the chance for success is very high because of all the momentum already taking place.”

I hope you all team up in the future, as it's clear you all are committed to high quality development.

Thanks for all you're doing to make OKC a fantastic city! I wish you all great success.

[Teo9969]

The question was "what made you choose this site?" It's a standard question I ask. I will note Gary's response was more about talking up Midtown rather than dismissing another district. And his response was not unlike responses given by other developers. When I broke the story about The Metropolitan in July, John Gilbert with the Bomasada Group made a comment similar to what Gary said, except it was promoting the east side of downtown as the only good spot left.
To quote:
Gilbert, who presented the project Thursday to the Downtown Design Review Committee, said the site for The Metropolitan, NE 6 and Oklahoma Avenue, is the last best remaining site downtown for new housing.

The property is immediately east of Ninth Street, home to a popular mix of restaurants and shops. The southeast corner of the property is home to a pocket park built by the Automobile Alley Association.

"We like this site better," Gilbert said. "We are within walking distance of Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Automobile Alley and MidTown. We have great access to I-235 and 10th Street. We really have great access to everywhere in the city."


Not sure I remember the folks who participate in this website making a fuss over that. But you guys are gonna do what you're gonna do....

Steve, you know the importance of words as much as anyone. The main difference between what was said/written about the Metropolitan and what was said/written in this recent article is that there was no juxtaposition...Gilbert only positively promoted the site he's developing.

Gary has said that he did not intend to slam Deep Deuce (which we have no reason not to believe) and he may have been thinking of another area altogether, but the words used accurately described Deep Deuce, and the wording was such that that some other place is less than Midtown.

It doesn't really matter what you mean, it matters what you say.

[betts]

But why do we care? Actually, unless the apartments are phenomenally over the top as compared to other apartments downtown, why would you live there? It's the worst location of any complex in the downtown area as far as proximity to amenities goes. Of course he's going to talk it up. It's all PR.

[Urbanized]

Excellent response. Thanks for joining the conversation and clearing things up, Gary. And thanks for all of the remarkable investment in downtown.

[Urbanized]

...Not sure I remember the folks who participate in this website making a fuss over that. But you guys are gonna do what you're gonna do....

Steve, the overwhelming response from EVERYONE has been positive to the point of gushing. Go back and read the first page. Even the people who took slight issue with the comment (myself included) were highly complimentary of the project and indicated they thought of the comment as a minor faux pas brought on by his enthusiasm for his own development. He engaged on the site, owned the comment and even apologized, though I don't think apology was required. I don't think it's a big deal.

I took issue as much as anyone did, and would have done the same had I caught the other one that you pointed out in the Metropolitan story. I've been very consistent for many years here and elsewhere in saying I think it is a mistake when someone in one downtown (or even just central city) district runs another like district down to make their own look better. We're all in this together, and if anything we are together competing with the 'burbs or other cities in the metro.

Doesn't matter. His response was first class, and everyone here was already mostly in love with his work anyway, myself included.

[modernism]

Midtown>Deep Deuce

[Urbanized]

Good grief.

[Urbanized]

There was an apparently-forgotten study paid for by OCURA around 1999 or 2000 that tried to gauge demand for downtown housing. If said that if 6000 or 7000 (if memory serves) housing units came online overnight, they would be INSTANTLY absorbed by current (at the time) demand. This was before most MAPS amenities were in place, before the energy sector was reinvigorated, before the Thunder, before the streetcar talk, before $3/gallon gasoline, before OCU law, before ACM@UCO, before OKC began the current population growth trend, before urban living became as trendy as it has.

Currently, when a new place comes online downtown, some residents jump ship for the new place, but the old places invariably snap back to 100% occupancies and waiting lists immediately.

It is going to be a long, LONG time before there is a downtown housing glut.

[Teo9969]

There was an apparently-forgotten study paid for by OCURA around 1999 or 2000 that tried to gauge demand for downtown housing. If said that if 6000 or 7000 (if memory serves) housing units came online overnight, they would be INSTANTLY absorbed by current (at the time) demand. This was before most MAPS amenities were in place, before the energy sector was reinvigorated, before the Thunder, before the streetcar talk, before $3/gallon gasoline, before OCU law, before ACM@UCO, before OKC began the current population growth trend, before urban living became as trendy as it has.

Currently, when a new place comes online downtown, some residents jump ship for the new place, but the old places invariably snap back to 100% occupancies and waiting lists immediately.

It is going to be a long, LONG time before there is a downtown housing glut.

That's awesome if that's what the study revealed.

And it helps when developers like Gary bring more to the table than just residences. These mixed-use developments are sorely needed in OKC.

[Pete]

There was an apparently-forgotten study paid for by OCURA around 1999 or 2000 that tried to gauge demand for downtown housing. If said that if 6000 or 7000 (if memory serves) housing units came online overnight, they would be INSTANTLY absorbed by current (at the time) demand. This was before most MAPS amenities were in place, before the energy sector was reinvigorated, before the Thunder, before the streetcar talk, before $3/gallon gasoline, before OCU law, before ACM@UCO, before OKC began the current population growth trend, before urban living became as trendy as it has.

Currently, when a new place comes online downtown, some residents jump ship for the new place, but the old places invariably snap back to 100% occupancies and waiting lists immediately.

It is going to be a long, LONG time before there is a downtown housing glut.

It was in 2005 and what it said was there was maximum supportable demand through 2015 of about 7,000-8,000 rental units and 4,000-5,000 for-sale units

Then it went on to say the projected annual absorption levels were 450-850 rental units and 350-750 for sale units for the same period.



See pages I-9 & I-10 here:

http://www.okc.gov/planning/resource...usingstudy.pdf

[Urbanized]

Pete, there was actually a similar study prior to that one circa 2000.

But the study you cite bolsters the same conclusions. It will be a long time before we max out. Especially when you consider the things that have happened since '05 only make relocating to downtown even MORE attractive/likely than it was 8 years ago.

[Pete]

Obviously, Gary Brooks knows how much demand there is for Midtown rental units more than anyone, as they just opened up their list for The Edge.

I suspect hundreds of interested parties contacted them, as they have for every other rental project in the central core.


Apart from studies, it's pretty clear there is still plenty of pent-up demand based on what people have reported on this site and what I've heard from friends.

Waiting lists everywhere, lots more people want to move downtown, etc.


And as I've said before, I really think the critical mass of having so many units will HELP with occupancy, not hinder. Allows for much more in the terms of energy and amenities.

While it's true there seems to be a lot in the rental pipeline, it's also true there is a lot of great amenities and things to do in the pipeline as well.


And keep in mind, it looks like there will be lots more people working downtown in the near future as well.


It's a rising tide that is lifting all ships.

[G.Walker]

If someone put a gun to my head to choose between Midtown and Deep Deuce, it would be Midtown, just sayin....

[Pete]

Midtown is much larger geographically and still has some pretty big holes.

But some of the larger gaps are starting to fill and before long these various projects will start to knit together the urban fabric, then you will have something pretty amazing IMO.


One huge advantage for Midtown: It has a massive and ever-growing employer in St. Anthony. Plus, much more office space and people working in the area in general.

That brings much more life and energy during the day and means restaurants can make a decent living at lunch. Big advantage over all the other districts expect the CBD.

[Urbanized]

Was discussing this the other day in relation to this development, but if ANYBODY stands to lose here it will be restaurants at 10th and Walker, because St. Anthony employees will now be able to turn left when they walk onto 10th for lunch. But even that is silly, because more people are also being rapidly added to the mix. As you say, a high tide floats all boats.

[Pete]

There has been a lack of dinner-time business for a lot of Midtown restaurants, which is the most profitable time of day.

There will be close to a thousand new residents just between this project and The Edge alone, with lots more on the way.

[Urbanized]

By the way, a few more announcements like these and some retail in the vein of a full-service Walgreens and/or CVS becomes far more likely downtown.

[Urbanized]

There has been a lack of dinner-time business for a lot of Midtown restaurants, which is the most profitable time of day.

There will be close to a thousand new residents just between this project and The Edge alone, with lots more on the way.

Excellent point.

[betts]

Midtown>Deep Deuce

Midtown very different from Deep Deuce. Deep Deuce feels very residential and is a real neighborhood. It just happens to have great access to the CBD, Bricktown and AA amenities. Midtown will be much more mixed use, and I don't think it will ever feel residential. It will be farther from downtown amenities although it will have a streetcar connection. I thought about moving from Deep Deuce to SoSA, but decided I didn't want to give up my proximity to the Chesapeake Arena, the parks and Bricktown (movie theatre, walking along the canal, access to the river in particular). I love the residential feel of Deep Deuce personally as well. If I were 24, I might prefer Midtown. It's nice to have both options and its great that both continue to grow.

[Pete]

Keep in mind that Midtown is about four times the geographical size of Deep Deuce or any other urban district.

Just one more reason it's hard to compare to the others.

[Spartan]

This ^

Deep Deuce is a very, very small neighborhood, similar to SoSA in geographic size. That's not a knock at all... it's just that Deep Deuce was the perfect size for OKC to do things the right way and get a complete urban neighborhood out of it in really just 5 years of growth (2008-2013 particularly, though the apartments were built around 2000). It was by far our best shot at a complete neighborhood, and we certainly didn't blow it.

The cultural impact of Deep Deuce is much more significant because it was a larger neighborhood before ODOT razed everything to blast I-235 through. That lends itself to very iconic branding and a strong place in OKC's collective awareness.

Midtown on the otherhand is a huge, vast, open space between downtown and the north side. I am surprised to see so much development so soon moving forward so fast in the western half of it toward Shartel and Classen. Those traffic circles were a brilliant idea and they're paying off now - maybe we should consider a few more along Walker or Shartel.

[Teo9969]

Midtown certainly doesn't feel residential now, but if MR pops out another 300 unit complex on their 10th/Hudson (NE) site and somebody builds residential complexes on the SW empty swath of land, then Midtown would have 1,000 new units in addition to what's already there. And when we say that Midtown is geographically bigger, when comparing districts, it's more accurate to use north Midtown in Comparison because so very little has taken place between 5th/Robinson/9th/Walker.

[betts]

It's not number of units. It's the fact that DD is almost exclusively housing and is so cozy that makes it feel residential. And a lot of it encourages being out on the sidewalk. The Wedge and Deep Deuce Grill both have busy outdoor areas. A lot of the people who eat at them walk there or park on the street. With St. Anthony's, the Plaza and lots of restaurants, Midtown feels very mixed use. That's not being disparaging. They're just different and their differences will appeal to different people. There's TOO much disparaging going on when discussing the different areas. It's not a competition, since there's virtually no available land in either. People will choose to live in one or the other for their own reasons.

And I don't see SoSA as part of Midtown personally. To me, St. Anthony's is a dividing line. Just as Automobile Alley is distinct from Deep Deuce.

[Spartan]

It's not number of units. It's the fact that DD is almost exclusively housing and is so cozy that makes it feel residential. And a lot of it encourages being out on the sidewalk. The Wedge and Deep Deuce Grill both have busy outdoor areas. A lot of the people who eat at them walk there or park on the street. With St. Anthony's, the Plaza and lots of restaurants, Midtown feels very mixed use. That's not being disparaging. They're just different and their differences will appeal to different people. There's TOO much disparaging going on when discussing the different areas. It's not a competition, since there's virtually no available land in either. People will choose to live in one or the other for their own reasons.

And I don't see SoSA as part of Midtown personally. To me, St. Anthony's is a dividing line. Just as Automobile Alley is distinct from Deep Deuce.

Re: bolded part

Agreed x 1000! Mixed-use is awesome. Deep Deuce is getting a little bit more mixed-use, too.

We just have a lot of things cooking and our two primary growth areas are developing very nicely. We are learning lessons with each neighborhood that we finish out that we can apply to the next. This is good, and even if we learned a lesson from something we could have done better in the last finished-out district, it still gives it a unique characteristic.

Honestly I don't think any of us know what Midtown is going to become. Similarly, I don't really know that any of us know what Deep Deuce will feel like in 2 years, because I have a hunch it will be a lot more mixed-use than any of us realize. I am just enjoying the ride.