Costco

[Urbanized]

Did you mean San Antonio thread? I live I San Antonio and started the San Antonio thread. I’ve pribably gone into the Dallas thread twice, maybe. I’m not a big DFW fan, btw.

Whichever thread you’re in. I am just aware that I mostly only see you in one Texas-related thread and rarely elsewhere. There is also a poster who mostly only lives in the Dallas thread. I rarely spend much time in either, so don’t keep track of who’s who.

Point being if you frequented other threads on this board you probably would not have been confused as to why I expanded my comments to types of incentives other than retail. Incentive discussion (especially TIF) often permeate a significant number of the development-related threads on this board these days.

[Plutonic Panda]

Dude. Here is your DIRECT QUOTE (which I also quoted in that response:

And by the way, you make it sound like towns like Carrollton and Frisco are the same as Luther or Else Reno or something. OKC and Tulsa would KILL to have some of the retail and economic development happening in backwaters of the Dallas metroplex.

Should Dallas itself be doing retail incentives? Probably not. It's a top five market in the U.S., and has disproportionate concentrated disposable income. OKC ain't Dallas. Neither, by the way is Fort Worth (who DOES use retail incentives) or Austin. Or San Antonio. If you're comparing OKC to Dallas you'd might as well compare us to NYC or San Francisco.

But that is NOT what you were doing. You very clearly suggested that in Texas, retail incentives were pretty much only happening in El Paso, Corpus and the Rio Grande Valley. Which is clearly BS.

I mean, are you saying I read your comment wrong? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

There is no comparable city in the US to NYC including LA. NYC is most powerful city in the world more so than Tokyo or Hong Kong which those cities are more than twice NYC’s population.

[Plutonic Panda]

No offense, but it’s obvious you and your other handle that’s DMing me are taking this way too serious. In the quote you quoted, I said “I see” because that was what I have seen with my own eyes. I never said it was the only places or that Texas was immune for it besides those three cities. If you have such an inferiority complex that you need to attack me because you decided to misinterpret what I said, then that’s on you.

I apologize if I don’t follow the north Texas suburbs as closing as you’d like me to do that I could be as informed as you’d like me to when I make a personal claim that isn’t absolute andvthat is incredibly harmless, to 99.9% of the existing population.

Also, where did I state in anything I posted that Dallas or Texas don’t use incentives for corporations or urban development? Every large city/metropolitan area does so. Hell, Amazon was just able to get hundreds cities to do it just relatively recently.

San Antonio uses incentives all the time for corporations and urban development. San Antonio just recently used 8 million to have a local company relocate from the suburbs to a new 10 story office building under construction in the Pearl area near downtown in the urban core.

But we we’rent talking about corporate incentives or developmental incentives, were we? No, we were talking about Costco.

With that all said, you may choose to continue the debate but that was my piece and I will no longer engage you in this.

I should also note that OKC isn’t s competitor for the HQ2 development and regardless what I think about that campaign OKC isn’t even in the same league of the citie that will get it. I still think OKC should throw its hat in. Realistically OKC won’t get it but that doesn’t meant it should still throw incentives at Costco.

PS, to urbanized, if were conparing OKC to Dallas, the NYC to San Fran argument night hold weight but only if Dallas VS. OKC is fair too. OKC should be compared to Dallas over Carrollton. OKC to Fort Worth is probably better but conparing ONC to Carrollton is wack.

[Plutonic Panda]

Sorry but there are several typos in my last response and I can't fix them.

[stile99]

My takeaway from the last few posts: "I only see x happening in three cities" = "I didn't look. AT ALL".

[Thomas Vu]

Better than my takeaway: one username is probably on the computer, and another on the cell phone.

[Urbanized]

Better than my takeaway: one username is probably on the computer, and another on the cell phone.

I don’t need to hide behind multiple usernames or Machiavellian tactics. I’m pretty open about who I am and what my opinions are. In fact if someone here wants to meet me for a beer to discuss these matters, feel free to ask. My office is directly across the street from TapWerks, so it would be a great place to meet.

Taking his spurious allegations at face value says much more about you than it does me.

And again, since it has become a thing, I’ll ask Pete to verify IPs. I post from my office, from my phone, and from my home. Having been a board admin in the past I know that it’s a simple matter to verify that whoever is messaging josh has never posted from any of the IPs where I’ve made thousands of posts.

[Urbanized]

My takeaway from the last few posts: "I only see x happening in three cities" = "I didn't look. AT ALL".

Yep.

Oh, also, there’s this: apparently even mighty DALLAS did, after all, give incentives to COSTCO. http://www.fox4news.com/news/dallas-...r-costco-store

The Dallas City Council agreed to give $3 million worth of incentives to Costco to bring one of its big box stores to Dallas.

Costco filed for a building permit on Coit Road just west of Central Expressway near the High Five. But the company told city officials it needed economic funds from the city to build the warehouse store.

After a lengthy discussion, which included concerns over corporate welfare, the council approved the funds in a 10-5 vote.

The Costco site is on 13 acres in between office buildings along Central. Construction could start later this year.

Part of the vote included southern Dallas council members attaching an amendment asking the city’s development office to come up with a plan for grocery stories in the southern region of the city.

Thanks, Internet!

So yeah. BS. With a capital S.

[Pete]

Josh, I can confirm the person who has been sending you the messages is not Urbanized or Urbanized using another account.

Let's please move on.

[Urbanized]

Josh, I can confirm the person who has been sending you the messages is not Urbanized or Urbanized using another account.

Let's please move on.

Thanks Pete.

Back to the topic at hand (Costco and now other retail incentives, since they were mentioned) just for the benefit of HONEST conversation and debate, I've now discovered the following through minimal effort:

• The City of Houston paid Costco $1 million TO LOCATE OUTISIDE OF THEIR CITY LIMITS (in Katy): https://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...co-4671410.php
  
• The City of Pearland (another Houston suburb) gave cash incentives to Costco for yet another store in the Houston metro: https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/p...st-6229444.php
  
• The City of Pharr, TX (this IS in the Rio Grande Valley) gave Costco ELEVEN MILLION DOLLARS: http://www.themonitor.com/news/local...836eeea3f.html
  
• Regarding general retail incentives, the City of Fort Worth (I know, I know, Fort Worth is just a random "north Texas suburb") recently (2016) voted to give TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS to an outlet mall: http://rebusinessonline.com/city-of-...etail-project/

Again, not making a case for or against such incentives in principle; in fact I personally find it pretty distasteful sometimes. I'm only pointing out that we are far from alone in giving them, so can we please stop perpetuating that idea?

I also think it's quite obvious that taking a stand and not doing them at all or daring a company to locate somewhere else would be economic development suicide for OKC at this juncture. We've made a lot of progress, but we are still a city that has to actively work to bring economic development (by the way, so does Dallas, apparently, and according to links I posted in the TIF thread, so does Denver, KC, Nashville, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Chicago, and even...New York).

By the way, I know some would love the transparency of seeing these incentives negotiated publicly (as opposed to council votes after the negotiation has obviously already been done), but I would challenge anyone to post a link to an example where this is actually done. Based on every link I've found, the negotiation is done privately by the company in question and the local economic development authority, and then the finalized incentive is forward to council for an up or down vote.

[HOT ROD]

I honestly don't mind OKC giving incentives to Costco to land them here. It is the first of what hopefully will be several others throughout the metro area - it's best that OKC land the first and establish itself and I'm sure the incentives might be needed for land purposes anyway.

Here's what I hope - that OKC hold Costco accountable for receiving incentives. I've we're going to incentivise, then hold companies to what they say or claw that money back. THIS to me is the REAL issue with OKC giving incentives, we often do OUR part only to receive something second rate (see lower bricktown and IMO the Omni CC hotel - which should be no less than 24 floors if OKC is paying for 1/3 the cost).

Now, what I hope/expect is by OKC offering incentives to Costco that they build the biggest Costco facility in the region. Make it a destination that will have every single offering experience under one roof. Make it so that even Tulsan's, Wichitan's, and Dallasites will strongly consider visiting the OKC store if not outright then at least tertiary to trips already planned to OKC. We need to make Memorial Road one of OKC's destinations (along with Downtown and perhaps somewhere in S OKC and it needs destination venues. If we're giving incentives then there should be the expectation of something better than what would be without.

[stile99]

To my understanding, the incentives are indeed performance-based, and also not one huge check. It won't be a matter of having to claw the money back if Costco doesn't do what they say, it's a matter of they won't get the money in the first place. I completely agree, this is the way these deals need to be made going forward. No more should a company get paid to promise 2,000 jobs, fill 200, then fire 180 of them a couple years later.

As for the biggest Costco in the region, that depends how you define region. There's only one other in the state, which apparently hasn't stopped people from going to Wichita or Dallas to shop (as you mentioned). It's going to be a destination regardless, and I don't feel the need to get into a measuring contest with either city. I think Costco has a fairly standard design, with a certain amount of wiggle room. We're getting a Costco, not THE. BEST. COSCTO. EVAR!!!!111one. Because that's all anyone gets.

[warreng88]

Costco a step closer to OKC

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record April 17, 2018

OKLAHOMA CITY – If the city had a more diverse tax base, perhaps the spotlight at Tuesday’s meeting of the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust wouldn’t have shone so brightly on a $3 million retail incentive, Mayor David Holt said.

The trust voted to support an agreement between City Hall and Costco Wholesale Corp. that could result in the development of a new retail outlet at N. Western Avenue and the Kilpatrick Turnpike. The City Council will review the recommendation next.

Costco executives said they’ve been interested in opening a store with about 150,000 square feet somewhere in the metropolitan area. The company has been in talks with city leaders for about five years, trying to narrow down a site and ensure it has the infrastructure to support nearly 1 million shoppers each year.

In order to keep the retailer in Oklahoma City rather than going to a neighboring community, the trust offered a performance-based incentive of up to $3 million over four or five years.

Based on industry research, city staff expects Costco will generate about $80 million in sales in the first year and grow to more than $140 million annually by the sixth year. About 40 percent of those sales will be new to the city’s sales tax base, not drawn from other local retailers.

That means that if Costco launches, Oklahoma City will get as much as $1 million in new general fund sales tax; up to $500,000 in sales tax dedicated to streets; as much as $375,000 in dedicated public safety sales tax; and up to $60,000 in zoo sales tax.

The city’s general fund budget totals $404 million. About 60 percent of the budget is funded by sales and use tax, and of that total, half of the sales tax comes from retail activity.

The city would not have offered exactly the same package if Holt’s earlier effort as a state legislator had proven successful. A year ago, he supported House Bill 1374 by state Rep. Weldon Watson, R-Tulsa, which would have allowed cities to tap into property taxes to pay for public safety equipment, jails, and the salaries and benefits of law enforcement and fire protection employees. The proposed limit of HB 1374 was low at just 5 mills of annual assessment – a millage is an assessment per $1,000 of assessed home value or about $82 annually on a $150,000 home at the 5-mill level.

The state Senate refused to let Holt restore the bill’s title so that it could move to a vote, effectively letting the issue quietly die, he said.

Any property levy at all could have freed up funds from another account elsewhere in a city’s budget. Now as Oklahoma City’s mayor, Holt wants to promote more tax revenue flexibility from the other side.

At the time Holt was pushing HB 1374, Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum offered his support because it would be a major step in letting city’s plan their services on a slightly steadier base. Reliance on retail sales tax forces cities across the state to compete for stores like Costco by putting up millions of dollars in incentives.

“We’re infamously the only state in the nation that relies so heavily on sales tax,” Holt said. “A diverse revenue stream would help us keep all the (taxation) rates relatively low instead of forcing some (like retail sales tax) so high. … It’s a shame we have to operate this way.

“I’m hopeful that eventually we’ll have a Legislature that considers the core services that cities provide,” he said. “But as long as I’ve been there, we were always playing defense.”

[Pete]

^

That was just a formality.

Final formality will be City Council's approval, likely on their agenda for Tuesday.

[Ward]

Yea !

[barrettd]

"At the time Holt was pushing HB 1374, Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum offered his support because it would be a major step in letting city’s plan their services on a slightly steadier base. Reliance on retail sales tax forces cities across the state to compete for stores like Costco by putting up millions of dollars in incentives."

These kinds of typos drive me nuts. That is all.

[stile99]

Unfortunately I'm not 100% convinced that it was a typo. Typos I can forgive, I make plenty of them myself. But there's a distressing (at least it is distressing to me) trend of illiteracy these days, and it is growing. More and more often it seems the response is "language is fluid, and you know what I meant so why does it matter?". People are proud, defiantly proud, vocally proud, belligerently proud, to be ignorant. If you attempt to educate them in any way, you're intolerant of their choice to be ignorant.

[barrettd]

Unfortunately I'm not 100% convinced that it was a typo. Typos I can forgive, I make plenty of them myself. But there's a distressing (at least it is distressing to me) trend of illiteracy these days, and it is growing. More and more often it seems the response is "language is fluid, and you know what I meant so why does it matter?". People are proud, defiantly proud, vocally proud, belligerently proud, to be ignorant. If you attempt to educate them in any way, you're intolerant of their choice to be ignorant.

That's much, much worse.

[Urbanized]

Unfortunately I'm not 100% convinced that it was a typo. Typos I can forgive, I make plenty of them myself. But there's a distressing (at least it is distressing to me) trend of illiteracy these days, and it is growing. More and more often it seems the response is "language is fluid, and you know what I meant so why does it matter?". People are proud, defiantly proud, vocally proud, belligerently proud, to be ignorant. If you attempt to educate them in any way, you're intolerant of their choice to be ignorant.

Almost certainly does not apply to journalists, ESPECIALLY print journalists. I’m willing to give benefit of doubt that it was a typo or autocorrect. Those happen to me often depending on device and are very frustrating and embarrassing. In a perfect journalism world it shouldn’t have made it to print anyway.

In the past such an article would have gone through many hands before making it to print. Copy readers, proofreaders, page editors. Not sure how many people touch a story these days but considering how lean most newspapers are it’s honestly probably a credit to writers in general that you don’t find MORE typos in stories.

When a typo makes it to a page I personally take a much harsher view toward the page editor and the publication itself than I do the writer, who was surely churning out on deadline.

[stile99]

I agree with you 100%, Urbanized. However, where we might disagree is the definition of journalist against the definition of someone who writes articles for a living. Not that I am attacking the author of this particular article, but generally the difference between the two is the difference between Totino's Party Pizza and Empire Slice House. Strictly speaking yeah, they're both pizza but comparing the two is a laugh.

Where we doubly agree is that in the past there would have been multiple levels that should have caught it, but it seems they're as dead as the concept of journalism itself. Also that the black eye is on the publication, not the author.

[barrettd]

Almost certainly does not apply to journalists, ESPECIALLY print journalists. I’m willing to give benefit of doubt that it was a typo or autocorrect. Those happen to me often depending on device and are very frustrating and embarrassing. In a perfect journalism world it shouldn’t have made it to print anyway.

In the past such an article would have gone through many hands before making it to print. Copy readers, proofreaders, page editors. Not sure how many people touch a story these days but considering how lean most newspapers are it’s honestly probably a credit to writers in general that you don’t find MORE typos in stories.

When a typo makes it to a page I personally take a much harsher view toward the page editor and the publication itself than I do the writer, who was surely churning out on deadline.

Agreed.

[Urbanized]

...where we might disagree is the definition of journalist against the definition of someone who writes articles for a living. Not that I am attacking the author of this particular article, but generally the difference between the two is the difference between Totino's Party Pizza and Empire Slice House. Strictly speaking yeah, they're both pizza but comparing the two is a laugh...

Well, in the interest of full disclosure his sister Brenda Bennett is a longtime personal friend of mine, but I really don't know Brian at all. I've met him but that's about it. I just know that he has worked for The Journal Record, The Gazette, and The Oklahoman and has been a reporter in the market since the eighties. And also I think he teaches journalism. I know he's won some awards for his writing. All of that to say, if you asked with which of your two groupings he wants to identify ("journalist" vs "someone who writes articles for a living"), I'm guessing he'd say the former.

[Rover]

Why is anyone surprised that the Oklahoman, or any newspaper, has to run much leaner today than in days past and consequently makes more mistakes? It is expensive to have layers of fact checkers, proof readers, editors, etc. and people don't want to pay for that. We cry about all the incorrect news, but we don't want to support an organization that would be required to insure that mistakes aren't made. It's like crying that modern retailers don't provide the customer attention and service they used to and then turning around and ordering from Amazon. You can get cheap and you can get good, but you don't usually get both.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
Truth. The disruption that has been caused to that industry by technology has been good in some ways and very compromising in others.

[stile99]

Why is anyone surprised that the Oklahoman, or any newspaper, has to run much leaner today than in days past and consequently makes more mistakes?

I've not seen anyone express such surprise, so I'm afraid I can't begin to answer why.