Metropolitan

[catch22]

Pete have you heard any possible timeline that this development(s) may be announced?

[LakeEffect]

Is it possible that they just didn't want to conform too any design guidelines they anticipated would be required? A site with a heavy emphasis on a drive-thru may not be as inexpensive or simple to accomplish and perhaps isn't worth their time at the moment.

Just a speculation.

Highly doubt it. Bricktown code specifically prohibits drive through food establishments, but no where else. It can be accomplished through the existing design regulations.

[Pete]

Pete have you heard any possible timeline that this development(s) may be announced?

No.

But things seem to be moving along.

Usually, the first step is a submission for design review and/or land sale. Neither has happened as of yet.

[Spartan]

Highly doubt it. Bricktown code specifically prohibits drive through food establishments, but no where else. It can be accomplished through the existing design regulations.

I'm curious about this though, because I see you routinely lament how strong the Bricktown design provisions are (they can just win at BoA, etc). Do they really? Genuine question

[LakeEffect]

I'm curious about this though, because I see you routinely lament how strong the Bricktown design provisions are (they can just win at BoA, etc). Do they really? Genuine question

Yes, the code for Bricktown was actually updated to eliminate the use units "Eating Establishment: Drive-Through" and "Eating Establishment: Drive-in". Use Units are much more strict than design regulations, because a use unit cannot be varied by the Board of Adjustment. A full on zoning change would be required, and you'd be hard pressed to get zoned OUT of the BC (Bricktown Core) zoning. That would be an amazing fight.

[Urbanized]

And one thing that Starbucks in particular is going to be obsessed about, is being on the "going-to-work side of the road" so that people don't have to left-turn through traffic in the morning.

No question.

Listen, a vehicle-focused (heavy drive-thru) business is entirely appropriate for that specific chunk of land. If you check out ACOG's traffic count database, you'll see that block of 6th daily sees 7700 cars. Harrison, which branches off of the same five-point intersection a few yards east has 3200 daily. There is no recent count for the other branches off of that intersection, including Walnut and northeastbound Harrison, but it is easy to imagine that 15,000 cars make it through that intersection daily. A large number of people also exit/access I-235 along Oklahoma Avenue, which runs down the east side of the proposed Starbucks lot. No matter how walkable we make downtown, none of this will be changing; in fact as downtown redevelops and sees more infill that count is likely to go up considerably. Giving those drivers a Starbucks at what amounts to the bottom of their off-ramp on the way to work in the morning just makes too much sense from a business standpoint.

That said, the east and north sides of the building could (and should) be built in such a way as to encourage the pedestrian traffic that would eventually result from a (walkable) makeover of the neighborhood to the north. In other words, it shouldn't be a strictly suburban-style place but rather a hybrid that caters to both drive-thru and walk-up business. The Bricktown McDonalds is probably the best (only?) example of this in OKC, but I think it could be done much better than even that store was done.

[Spartan]

Yes, the code for Bricktown was actually updated to eliminate the use units "Eating Establishment: Drive-Through" and "Eating Establishment: Drive-in". Use Units are much more strict than design regulations, because a use unit cannot be varied by the Board of Adjustment. A full on zoning change would be required, and you'd be hard pressed to get zoned OUT of the BC (Bricktown Core) zoning. That would be an amazing fight.

Ahh, okay. Thanks for spelling out the difference. Then I guess the question is if there is a way to make design regulations as strong, or if that would require a full shift for form-based building codes?

[LakeEffect]

Ahh, okay. Thanks for spelling out the difference. Then I guess the question is if there is a way to make design regulations as strong, or if that would require a full shift for form-based building codes?

The problem is that the City developed its downtown zoning code (and other design districts) as its own amalgamation of form, design and land use based code. Some form based code lovers would say that you don't need design review as long as its urban. Others would argue you can control new development using existing code and strong design regulations. Additionally, some people would say that the use itself doesn't matter under a true form based code, so if we adopted a full form based code, then it wouldn't matter what happens.

That wordy statement being said, I think we should move toward a form-based code with less design review. Make it urban and you won't need much design review - the Committees/Commissions change membership, change interpretation, and often get into a "I like it" or "I don't like it" mode instead of an "it meets/does not meet the code" mode.

A form-based code may allow a drive through at an appropriate location based on the transect model - a drive through wouldn't be appropriate in the inner downtown core, but on an entrance arterial into town, perhaps.

[Spartan]

As long as you adjust the transect model for separate nodes we want to develop activity, like centered around NW 63rd/Western, that works very well and makes a lot of sense. It makes the city a functioning entity around downtown. I'm more and more becoming a fan of form-based coding as the beauty is in its simplicity, and I also think elected leaders learn more from the city code (and respect the city code more) than the planning knowledge on staff and in the community.

With legitimate big cities like Cincinnati and small cities like Fayetteville moving toward form-based, I think the time is right for OKC. Do you have any idea if Plan OKC talks about that at all?

[LakeEffect]

As long as you adjust the transect model for separate nodes we want to develop activity, like centered around NW 63rd/Western, that works very well and makes a lot of sense. It makes the city a functioning entity around downtown. I'm more and more becoming a fan of form-based coding as the beauty is in its simplicity, and I also think elected leaders learn more from the city code (and respect the city code more) than the planning knowledge on staff and in the community.

With legitimate big cities like Cincinnati and small cities like Fayetteville moving toward form-based, I think the time is right for OKC. Do you have any idea if Plan OKC talks about that at all?

It probably will... not sure at this point. The plan process is in the policy development stage, so the time is right for it to come up.

[Pete]

I'm hearing that the proposed hotel deal for this property will now be about 150+ apartments.

They are close to getting everything finalized and we should get an official announcement soon.

[catch22]

That's quite a bit of land for only 150 apartments.

Does this fall under any type of urban design district?

[Pete]

It's about 3.75 acres, at least the part east of Oklahoma. And that doesn't include the now-closed street easement on 6th & 7th.

By comparison, Level has 222 units on 2.62 acres.


This project would fall under the purview of the Urban Design Commission.

[OKCbrew]

It's a nice view from that spot, if you've got a unit with some elevation facing the south you should be able to see most of downtown and Bricktown. I'd move in!

[HangryHippo]

Pete, is the Bomasada group out of Houston involved again? Or is this something else entirely?

[BoulderSooner]

Pete, is the Bomasada group out of Houston involved again? Or is this something else entirely?

i don't think so .. i think this is a Garrett and company (along with partners like TAP) project

[Pete]

i don't think so .. i think this is a Garrett and company (along with partners like TAP) project

Yep.

[HangryHippo]

And it's now apartments? That's pretty cool. I look forward to an announcement.

[Pete]

BTW, I'm not sure that the apartments will take all of the land east of Oklahoma.

They might be planning to use part of that for something else.


Should see something submitted or design review soon.

[HangryHippo]

By soon do you mean in a matter of weeks (sometime in early April) or a matter of months (sometime in late May/early June)?

[adaniel]

If they do decide to build on that corner a quiet zone is going to be a must. The train starts blowing its horn at NE 7th.

[Soho]

Rumor is that a quiet zone is part of the deal.

If they do decide to build on that corner a quiet zone is going to be a must. The train starts blowing its horn at NE 7th.

[Teo9969]

On some level, this is every bit as interesting as the Mystery Tower.

Stretching way to the NE now.

Interesting name for the LLC too: OKC Town Center ... wonder if they have any long term plans to develop something like this: CITYCENTRE - Welcome to CITYCENTRE

That would seem to be a good area of town to make that happen.

[Pete]

Pete, is the Bomasada group out of Houston involved again? Or is this something else entirely?

Actually, now I am hearing they may be involved in this. They have at least shown interest.

[Mississippi Blues]

I think the Bomasada group would do a good job on the project. Will definitely be checking this thread to keep track of what goes on.