State Fairgrounds

[Urbanized]

It is also comparing apples and teriyaki chicken. One is the second largest state in the Union, and the other is Oklahoma...Not really fair to compare.

I also agree with this, which is the case on MANY topics when people compare OKC to Dallas/TX, and meant to post as much. Acknowledging that the Texas Fairgrounds and the fair itself is bigger and nicer than the OK State Fair isn't - at least in my book - an indictment of the Oklahoma versions. I would EXPECT the Texas version to be bigger/nicer, unless Oklahoma specifically targeted and prioritized being bigger/better than its Texas counterpart. And if we did so, it would be fair (no pun intended) to question that as a priority.

But acknowledging something else as bigger or nicer than a local version - WHEN IT QUANTIFIABLY AND UNDENIABLY IS - should't be seen as poor-mouthing or criticizing Oklahoma. Other places also have better mountains, taller buildings, bigger malls, whatever. Plenty of places have less, too.

[PhiAlpha]

I also agree with this, which is the case on MANY topics when people compare OKC to Dallas/TX, and meant to post as much. Acknowledging that the Texas Fairgrounds and the fair itself is bigger and nicer than the OK State Fair isn't - at least in my book - an indictment of the Oklahoma versions. I would EXPECT the Texas version to be bigger/nicer, unless Oklahoma specifically targeted and prioritized being bigger/better than its Texas counterpart. And if we did so, it would be fair (no pun intended) to question that as a priority.

But acknowledging something else as bigger or nicer than a local version - WHEN IT QUANTIFIABLY AND UNDENIABLY IS - should't be seen as poor-mouthing or criticizing Oklahoma. Other places also have better mountains, taller buildings, bigger malls, whatever. Plenty of places have less, too.

Exactly. The main point of my post about the State Fair of Texas was to point out how worthless some rankings lists are. If a top 10 state fair list doesn't even include the State Fair of Texas, but does include OKC & Tulsa's which are undeniably well below the quality of the State Fair of Texas, then it's hard to take such rankings seriously and we certainly shouldn't just assume we're doing just fine because of them.

[HOT ROD]

You don’t have to think the sun and moon rises in Texas to see that it’s one of the best state fairs in the country. It blows ours out of the water and it’s not even close.

Yes, but this didn't used to be the case. ..

That's the point people are making. Oklahoma State Fair used to be a destination holding its own against larger state's fairs in TX, MN, and OH. There used to be destinations at the fair, like them or not, which were annual draws nationwide and in many cases what set OKC apart from Dallas's fair, for example. Today, the fair in OKC is so mediocre that YES it doesn't hold a candle to TX; but I argue that in pre-1995 OKC's fair was one of the top 3 in the nation.

The other point people are arguing is that we're still spending lots of money at the fairgrounds and can't really see where it's being spent. It's one thing to spend money to replace the monorail, space needle, the race track, or the sky ride - it's another thing when all of those things are gone and we're left spending an enormous amount of MAPS dollars on the leaky Bennett Event Center and horse barns. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't do the horses but I am saying it is clear the horse industry was placed at the detriment of the fair - NOW there is real competition to the south in that sector; we're not seeing how our dollars have been spent to keep OKC even in the conversation.

[jedicurt]

Yes, but this didn't used to be the case. ..

and this i guess is where my memory must be failing me... i have attended every every Oklahoma state fair since 1986, and i don't remember a time when we were even remotely close to the Texas state fair. was this time period before 1986? or did we attend different fairs?

[jerrywall]

and this i guess is where my memory must be failing me... i have attended every every Oklahoma state fair since 1986, and i don't remember a time when we were even remotely close to the Texas state fair. was this time period before 1986? or did we attend different fairs?

I don't think they were ever close, but the gap sure has widened.

[HangryHippo]

I don't think they were ever close, but the gap sure has widened.

This is really the point I was trying to make. Well said, Jerry.

[bombermwc]

That happened when they downsized the fair, cut down the number of days, started allowing the buildings to deteriorate like crazy, and used a "family" approach as an excuse to cut things out. The most distinct "Family" reduction was the insult dunk clown. Yeah he was crude, but even as a kid i thought it was funny, even if he was targeting me. Really, they could have organized areas to be more focussed towards adults and retained those things. For a brief bit, we had a fairly good good truck row, but that's gone away. Another problem i see is when they started using the contract vendor for all items. So now we're limited to what that single vendor has. It's a lot less varying in what's offered, although there are some things we didnt have before (mostly on the kid side).

The problem for me in the fair itself, is that it lacks "destination" things there. If you aren't in to the carnival thing, it's a total dud. We could add some things that are extra to bring people in. Think of something like when Nintendo Power was here. Have that as an event DURING the fair. They could still charge an extra fee for getting in to that event. But much like how you walk out of WalMart with more than you meant to get, if you walk through the fair on the way to the show, you might buy some extra food, play some games, etc. So the fair becomes the extras for that person. Bring some of the Arts back to the grounds like we had when City Arts Center was there. But all of these things can't be done if all we focus on is ag shows. We HAVE to expand our vision.

[HOT ROD]

ok, sure TX has always had a much nicer fair. But OKC used to be highly ranked with them and Minnesota and Ohio.

[Bullbear]

I am sure its been mentioned but for me it lost its appeal when they began removing all of the "Place Making" elements. you expected to see these areas each time and it oriented you as to where you were and made it feel special. The "Arrows to Atoms" space needle no longer works and I am sure they will knock it down as soon as they can. There was the Cottonwood post area with all the random Telephone poles in front of the fort type structure. The monorail and the Grandstands. Now the arch has toppled and I am sure will not be replaced. there were a few fountains that no longer exist as well. Even newer structures that were interesting like the International building changed after the inflatable cable tied top blew off in a storm they replaced it to look just like any other building.. The Planes that were mounted in the air behind cottonwood post and my grandmother use to always have flowers in the Fair in the Flowers building and there was a waterfall and permanent stream inside that they would plant and last I was ever in that building it was gutted and not sure its even in use any longer. Those Items made the fair seem special. Now they could basically put the fair in any parking lot like a traveling carnival because there isn't much special there.

[Rover]

I think there are two different arguments ... fairgrounds and fairs.

[Bullbear]

I think there are two different arguments ... fairgrounds and fairs.

But doesn't the fairgrounds itself kind of enhance the Fair experience? Making it more appealing as a fair?
or is this argument just that the fair doesn't have as many displays of ribbon winning livestock and quilts or nearly enough Hot Tub sales people?

[Rover]

Since this OKC is so crappy version 1,000 thread has been going on I have been searching a lot for objective info. As to fairgrounds, I have found very little on how fairgrounds fit into lifestyle designs for contemporary American cities. I don’t find it in any calculus for quality of life, etc. So, my question is, why is this such a hot point for so many posters here?

Best I can tell, people are upset we took down a small, badly maintained “space needle” and a dilapidated monorail that was at best an old amusement ride. Is it just the fact that removing them means the end of childhood for some? They certainly don’t represent anything cultural or historic for OKC or OK.

As for the art museums... would we rather have OKCMOA downtown or in a cheap old building on the fairgrounds? How about the new contemporary art center being built...rather downtown or west OKC? We certainly don’t support arts well enough for multiple high quality art museums and art districts. Personally I’d rather see the local art scene at Paseo than at the Fairgrounds.

So, what is the real role of a fairgrounds in a modern city and is it more important than the other things we are doing?

[Rover]

But doesn't the fairgrounds itself kind of enhance the Fair experience? Making it more appealing as a fair?
or is this argument just that the fair doesn't have as many displays of ribbon winning livestock and quilts or nearly enough Hot Tub sales people?

I think a good example for us should be the Iowa State Firgrounds in Des Moines... a good mix of old and new and has some personality. My biggest complaint with ours is that we don’t make the buildings we have look very permanent...too many metal buildings. Let’s see if we step it up with the new arena. We will see how much the public supports the idea of improving the facilities.

[jedicurt]

Best I can tell, people are upset we took down a small, badly maintained “space needle” and a dilapidated monorail that was at best an old amusement ride. Is it just the fact that removing them means the end of childhood for some? They certainly don’t represent anything cultural or historic for OKC or OK.

that's exactly what i have been trying to find on this thread. i'm looking for what really is the issue... is it because we took down items that were just ripoffs of what other places had done better?

I'm still trying to get an answer for what made the fair "so great" that isn't there now... what is the objective answer as to what has changed, and then look to see if that actually added any real value. or is it all subjective items that never really had any value.

[Laramie]

So, how many where think we should spend a few hundred million to make us a Texas fairground? Just curious their budget vs the DFW gdp and Okc fairground budget vs our GDP. Dallas metro is the 4th largest economy in the US at $475 Billion. OKC is 30th at $189 Billion. Yeah, there might be some reason there is a difference in facility commitment and capability.

Dallas' Texas State Fair Park is a 2nd-to-none fairgrounds' gauge. Fair Park encompasses 277 acres; OSF has 440 acres. Remember, many of the structures at Dallas' Fair Park were built during 1936 Texas Centennial Exposition (TCE). Big D was smart to upgrade, renovate & maintain those expositions built by counties who participated in the '36 World's Fair. Dallas added some 30 structures since the TCE.

The City of OKC should include $100 million on the next MAPS IV initiative for Oklahoma State Fairgrounds' capital improvements with citizens' input. Match dollar for dollar not to exceed $100 million on a new State Fair Arena replacement; if the State Fair Board chips in $60 million--then $120 million becomes available for a new arena. OKC would have to include $100 million (exclude arena matching funds) for separate fairgrounds CI--example: new space tower, monorail or streetcar extension etc.


Dallas spent $12 million in 2013 to construct the 500 feet Top O' Texas Tower at Fair Park.

OKC: Invest $30 million of $100 million capital improvements (CI) on something comparable like a new 660 ft., Arrows-to-Atoms Space Tower replacement--twice the height of the present 330 ft., non operating tower.

Decide if we want a new monorail or extend the streetcar from DT to an oval loop circling inside the fairgrounds with potential expansion to WRWA. Just a few ideas to get started...

[jedicurt]

only thing i agree with you on this would be streetcar expansion

[shawnw]

transit connection yes, 100M more on fairgrounds in next MAPS? sorry, no. with the exception of arena replacement. I'd be okay with that.

[Rover]

Dallas' Texas State Fair Park is a 2nd-to-none fairgrounds' gauge. Fair Park encompasses 277 acres; OSF has 440 acres. Remember, many of the structures at Dallas' Fair Park were built during 1936 Texas Centennial Exposition (TCE). Big D was smart to upgrade, renovate & maintain those expositions built by counties who participated in the '36 World's Fair. Dallas added some 30 structures since the TCE.

The City of OKC should include $100 million on the next MAPS IV initiative for Oklahoma State Fairgrounds' capital improvements with citizens' input. Match dollar for dollar not to exceed $100 million on a new State Fair Arena replacement; if the State Fair Board chips in $60 million--then $120 million becomes available for a new arena. OKC would have to include $100 million (exclude arena matching funds) for separate fairgrounds CI--example: new space tower, monorail or streetcar extension etc.


Dallas spent $12 million in 2013 to construct the 500 feet Top O' Texas Tower at Fair Park.

OKC: Invest $30 million of $100 million capital improvements (CI) on something comparable like a new 660 ft., Arrows-to-Atoms Space Tower replacement--twice the height of the present 330 ft., non operating tower.

Decide if we want a new monorail or extend the streetcar from DT to an oval loop circling inside the fairgrounds with potential expansion to WRWA. Just a few ideas to get started...

IF we were going to spend that much on a new space needle, would we really rather have it at I-44/I-40 or I-35/I-40 at the Riversport area? Rather extend the streetcar to the fairgrounds or Capital Hill?

[Laramie]

An observation tower 660 ft., too close to the core IMO wouldn't be as scenic. Need a mile or more: Seattle Space Needle is 1.4 miles from downtown.

My vision for streetcar expansion to the fairgrounds would be to add some attractions like an observation tower; expand rail to WRWA. You need some pieces at the fairgrounds like the tower which could be open 10-11 months a year. Add some year round pieces; we've got 440 acres, 110 acres larger than 227 acre Fair Park in Dallas.

It's 5 miles from DT to the fairgrounds. Rail alone will cost 5 miles x $13 million per mile = $65 million rail costs; eventually to WRWA thru Meridian Hotel Corridor from Fairgrounds 8.8 miles 9 x $13 million = $144 million. There's no inexpensive route (14 miles) to run the streetcar that distance--it's a future investment which could involve several funding sources--MAPS, Airport Bonds, State Fair Board, Grants, Federal dollars...

From Downtown rail: 1 Myriad Gardens Oklahoma City, Cox Convention Center
(5 miles)
To Fairgrounds to: 3001 General Pershing Blvd, Oklahoma City
(8.8 miles)
WRWA: 7100 Terminal Dr, Oklahoma City - 14 miles from DT to WRWA

These are rough low end estimates...

You want these things, you need sources to fund them; you also need attractions (Arena, Observation Tower, Streetcar) in between at the Fairgrounds. Rail to WRWA would grow more development along the route

Get the new arena built; we have horse shows & exhibits ready for a long term commitment before Fort Worth sweeps them up.

[bombermwc]

Since this OKC is so crappy version 1,000 thread has been going on I have been searching a lot for objective info. As to fairgrounds, I have found very little on how fairgrounds fit into lifestyle designs for contemporary American cities. I don’t find it in any calculus for quality of life, etc. So, my question is, why is this such a hot point for so many posters here?

Best I can tell, people are upset we took down a small, badly maintained “space needle” and a dilapidated monorail that was at best an old amusement ride. Is it just the fact that removing them means the end of childhood for some? They certainly don’t represent anything cultural or historic for OKC or OK.

As for the art museums... would we rather have OKCMOA downtown or in a cheap old building on the fairgrounds? How about the new contemporary art center being built...rather downtown or west OKC? We certainly don’t support arts well enough for multiple high quality art museums and art districts. Personally I’d rather see the local art scene at Paseo than at the Fairgrounds.

So, what is the real role of a fairgrounds in a modern city and is it more important than the other things we are doing?

Actually i believe we addressed these questions and you're misrepresenting some of my statements regarding the art museum.

So lets start with that art museum. Yes, we had the City Arts Center on the fairgrounds before. Yes, it moved downtown. Yes it's better downtown. Am i looking for the art museum to be back at the fair? NO! What i said was, it was something that counted as a DESTINATION at the grounds outside of the carnival or gun shows. That's an aspect we are missing on our grounds. Something that serves as a destination for visitors. We USED to have that in the speedway. But think along those lines in that we're looking for something to bring people in (other than cow and horse shows) regularly that people go directly to the grounds because that's where that thing is. Be creative in thinking about out-of-the-box ideas on what that could be. The frustration here comes from the fair board being so narrowly focussed on ONLY adding items for those agriculture shows. I feel like we should be diversifying that more. Not putting so many eggs in one basket (pun). If those shows ever do leave OKC, what are we left with? A bunch of empty barns and RV hookups and nothing else to show for it.

Another point we/I have made that you didn't read appropriately, was that the grounds themselves are CRAP! We could spend a little money and make our fair grounds into something nice with landscaping work, or at least the addition of some stonework, trees, etc. We dont need wood chips running off from the rain or sprinklers running during the rain. But patchy asphalt and weedy grass is our current landscaping choice, and i think we can do better. Think of it like your own house. Even if you have a very nice home, if your yard looks like crap, then the whole place is brought down. Spruce up that flowerbed and the appearance of the whole place is better and more pleasing. Same thing here.

As for lifestyle, it's a fair. It's not part of any lifestyle category, so stop looking. It's not an amenity people count in city rankings. That doesn't mean we should be making it all it can be. If we follow the logic you placed there, then we shouldn't be concerned about the sewer system either. Hey, it's not part of a ranking in "lifestyle" so why care right? How about electricity? Extreme, but i think you get my point on why we are focussing on making the grounds better.

[hoya]

I really don't care that much about the fairgrounds. I go to the fair maybe once every four or five years, and usually just get a funnel cake or something. Sure, the carnival aspect is kind of fun, but the whole thing is pretty low on my priority list. I do miss the arch thing, and going up in the space needle. I only rode the monorail once or twice, and that was when I was a little kid. Honestly the last time that I went before a lot of those "attractions" were removed, they seemed really small-time. If I didn't have somewhat fond memories of going there as a kid, I wouldn't have thought much about them at all.

It's much more important to me that the people running the thing are spending our tax dollars wisely. I'm disturbed by the idea that there's no oversight, the money just disappears into a black hole and we have no idea what they're doing with it. That needs to change before we allocate another cent to the State Fair Board. They may be doing a great job, but we don't have any way of verifying that right now.

I wouldn't mind having an impressive fairgrounds, but we'd need a real plan and not just throw money at the State Fair Board. Right now, everything I've seen them build seems very bland and utilitarian. Maybe those horse barns just rake in the cash, but they sure are ugly as crap. I've done some Googling, and it seems that our state fair looks pretty much like every other state fair around the country. I don't think we're really lagging behind, but I couldn't really tell the difference between ours and anybody else's. Texas' fairgrounds are cool because they've got a bunch of old Art Deco buildings. Ours doesn't have anything like that.

Right now, the State Fair Board has no sense of style. You could give them a billion dollars and they'd fill that place with the finest in sheet metal construction and asphalt. If we're going to make a real investment in it, we need to get a result like the old World's Fairs. We need monuments, reflecting pools, high quality architecture, and something to inspire. If we're going to spend money, let's build something worth preserving.

[SoonerDave]

The whole point here is that the OK State Fair *used* to be a "destination" fair. It *did* compare favorably, for a time, with the Texas and Ohio State Fairs. That was phenomenal in and of itself. Then tragedy is that we purposely let it go to nil. I've lost count of how many times people have wanted something distinctive in OKC; the Fair was it. Or at least one of those things in the discussion. The lost potential is tragic for OKC.

[jedicurt]

The lost potential is tragic for OKC.

please explain your thoughts on this further... maybe this is where i'm getting lost.

[SoonerDave]

please explain your thoughts on this further... maybe this is where i'm getting lost.

Our fairgrounds (and, this, our fair) had unique structures and attractions. It had the bomber display, the 14 Flags Plaza, fountains throughout, and cannas lined many of the walkways. You had the monorail and the space needle that, again, made the fair distinctive. OKC should have leveraged those assets into something that *continued* to make that Fair a destination, not just an afterthought north of the horse barns.

Of *course* the youngest people here don't see it or appreciate it, because it's all been razed - and most of it purposely because it offended the tastes and sensibilities of the effete and elite. We really had a fair that was mentioned in the same breath as fairs from Texas and Ohio with much greater resources. Heavens, we gave kids a day off from school and a free ticket to *attend* the fair back in the day. What a great foundation! Except that we chose a path that made it...just another fair. You see what it has become. I see what it once was, and see the path not taken. And all of OKC as a community is the worse for it.

[jedicurt]

i guess this thread just isn't for me. because i don't remember the fair that way. i have gone almost every year since 1986, and i always thought it was low-rent and barely up to par as being a state fair, let alone be mentioned in the same paragraph as the Texas state fair. perhaps this glory time was before 1986 and i missed it. or perhaps my experience just wasn't the same as yours. so for those reasons, i'm just going to be done with this thread because it is too much about the idea subjective memory and nostalgia (in my opinion) rather than tangible details that can be discussed