Open Carry Law Set to Pass

[MadMonk]

But don't let that stop you from pretending all the real Men are not afraid and carry weapons and everyone who disagrees are women, children and pansies. Especially when the opposite is more true.

Where did you get the idea that those who carry think those that don't aren't "real men"? I think your imagination is running a bit wild here. I think someone who has admitted trembling in fear at the site of a gun is a little bit silly (barring any scarring event in their life involving a gun), but nobody ever questioned anyone's "manhood". In fact, I believe the only person mentioning such nonsense here is you.

The sweeping changes are part of a little-known but dramatic expansion of user-friendly gun laws across the country. Rough estimates put the number of concealed carry permit holders at between 4 and 7 million nationwide.

That's a good thing, IMO. You make a great case for conceal carry as well. Four to seven million permit holders and the only problems anyone can point to are statistically insignificant, incidental cases.

Colorado Supreme Court Affirms Campus Carry

DENVER, March 5 – Students in Colorado can now legally carry guns into college classrooms.

http://concealedcampus.org/2012/03/c...-campus-carry/

Way to go Colorado! I know of no time a student who was legally carrying shot up a campus.

[HewenttoJared]

As someone who tends to anger people on a regular basis I am not a fan of this.

[BBatesokc]

Just saw a TV news report. Yes, they confirmed he was legally carrying with a conceal and carry permit. Police also said they have no evidence that would allow them to arrest Zimmerman. I do have an issue with Zimmerman getting out of his car. I wonder if any liability will be placed on the home owners association who organized the neighborhood patrol?

I also think this helps support my idea that to conceal and carry or open carry you should have to have more training and carry insurance.

[hrdware]

Yep, that will take the guns off the People of Walmart.










and at McDs, and where ever. How much you wanna bet the gun toters will be wanting to change that law next?

Won't affect Wal-mart. Wal-mart has a corporate policy to follow state law. They don't give local managers the ability to decide to post or not. Most national chains have the same type of policy, simply to follow state law. McDonalds stores are franchised and so each franchise owner can decide what they want for their own stores.

[Double Edge]

Where did you get the idea that those who carry think those that don't aren't "real men"?

BB:

Scared Nelly's who wet the bed

Again, the primary assumption and assertion I was speaking to that's been repeated several times is those who are opposed to open carry are doing so out of fear as if that argument is automatically trumped by someone else's desire to carry a weapon for whatever reason (fear.) Who is afraid when your answer to a perceived problem is to strap on a loaded weapon, not to mention one in plain sight of everyone you come in contact with?

As I said, it's a decency and standard of behavior and interaction issue for many of us but the gun toters like to demonize their opposition by stereotype and branding them as hysterical, scared nelly's who wet the bed.

[Roadhawg]

As someone who tends to anger people on a regular basis I am not a fan of this.

They will just shoot their computer screen lol

[Of Sound Mind]

Again, the primary assumption and assertion I was speaking to that's been repeated several times is those who are opposed to open carry are doing so out of fear as if that argument is automatically trumped by someone else's desire to carry a weapon for whatever reason (fear.) Who is afraid when your answer to a perceived problem is to strap on a loaded weapon, not to mention one in plain sight of everyone you come in contact with?

As I said, it's a decency and standard of behavior and interaction issue for many of us but the gun toters like to demonize their opposition by stereotype and branding them as hysterical, scared nelly's who wet the bed.

Could it have anything to do with the repeated fear mongering that remains unsubstantiated by any historical, documented evidence to support the hyperbolic prognostications?

[wallbreaker]

BB:

As I said, it's a decency and standard of behavior and interaction issue for many of us but the gun toters like to demonize their opposition by stereotype and branding them as hysterical, scared nelly's who wet the bed.

It's funny, I keep seeing the same arguement used against those for open carry. Can't have it both ways. Want to logically and soundly discuss the issue, or just insult those on the other side?

[Questor]

I have been thinking a lot today about the Martin/Zimmerman case where the young boy was gunned down by the neighborhood watch participant. The whole thing is so sad. In reading about it I have to think about how so much of human history's greatest wars and atrocities were probably caused by poor communications and misunderstanding. To the young black teen he saw a man following him, possibly with a firearm exposed, whom he probably saw as an attacker. To the man he saw someone he believed might have been casing the neighborhood and according to the 911 calls and his owns words Zimmerman saw someone who was "up to no good." Perhaps this had to do with race. Perhaps it was the hoodie the young man was wearing, which by the way if the photos of the boy are any indication were probably Hollester brand... not exactly a mainstay of gangs or troubled youth. Probably one or the other attacked the other assuming the other was out to get them, a struggle ensued and Zimmerman shot Martin.

The real issue isn't the concealed carry law: it's Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. No one is talking about it, but this is why the police aren't acting. They have to have probable cause in that state to arrest Zimmerman... the law says if you're out in public and feel threatened, you can use deadly force. He's told the police he felt threatened and thought he was acting in self defense. According to Florida law, the onus is on the police to find cause that this wasn't the case. This is the ultimate outcome of that law. He'll probably walk.

[BBatesokc]

In the Zimmerman case, my money says that they are taking their time in bringing charges. If they can't find any evidence the kid actually posed a reasonable threat I bet charges are filed. It may take days, weeks or even months, but I bet that's the path it takes.

[Questor]

On NPR today the police spokesman did finally confirm that this has to do with the Stand Your Ground law. Their hands may be tied... not sure. I agree though, they must be looking over every shred of evidence and this law to see if they have any wiggle room at all.

Ok, I found the Florida statute. It's an interesting read:

Florida Justifiable Use of Force

[Questor]

"(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

So he's going to say that he believed he was in a fight for his life... doesn't sound like he has to prove it actually was a fight for his life, just that he feared it, and it also sounds like the fear can be based on the other guy having a weapon or just his hand to hand brute force. I am guessing that the big question the police are looking into is the first part of that sentence and whether or not Zimmerman was engaged in an unlawful activity when he started pursuing Martin. If his actions weren't illegal, and he thought he was threatened then I'm guessing the homicide is probably legal in Florida. That really doesn't seem right, so I hope not.

[hrdware]

"(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.".

This is the same wording as Oklahoma's Stand Your Ground law.

[Questor]

This is the same wording as Oklahoma's Stand Your Ground law.

Really? Yikes.

[BBatesokc]

I think in the end Zimmerman is going to have a hard time convincing anyone that after he approached an unarmed youth that he was attacked and felt reasonably in fear for his life.

Like our local DA's office said, even if this law had been around prior to the Ersland case, it would not have effected filing charges against him. Of course, I think the video was the ultimate reason charges were filed - and there appears to be no video in the Zimmerman case.

[hrdware]

Really? Yikes.

Title 21, Section 1289.25 Paragraph D:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

[kevinpate]

Really? Yikes.

OK, I'll bite. Why yikes?

[Roadhawg]

I think in the end Zimmerman is going to have a hard time convincing anyone that after he approached an unarmed youth that he was attacked and felt reasonably in fear for his life.

Like our local DA's office said, even if this law had been around prior to the Ersland case, it would not have effected filing charges against him. Of course, I think the video was the ultimate reason charges were filed - and there appears to be no video in the Zimmerman case.

It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out. Zimmerman was told by 911 not to follow the young man but he not only followed him he got out of his vehicle with a loaded gun and followed him. http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/...nse/?hpt=hp_t1

[BBatesokc]

It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out. Zimmerman was told by 911 not to follow the young man but he not only followed him he got out of his vehicle with a loaded gun and followed him. http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/...nse/?hpt=hp_t1

Problem is, with the other half of the incident dead and no video, we will only get one side of the story. I still think charges are soon to follow. Or, at least it will fall on the hands of a grand jury (if they have grand juries in that area - not all do).

[Roadhawg]

Problem is, with the other half of the incident dead and no video, we will only get one side of the story. I still think charges are soon to follow. Or, at least it will fall on the hands of a grand jury (if they have grand juries in that area - not all do).

I think a wrongful death suit is in Zimmerman's future too.

[Double Edge]

Sanford, Florida (CNN) -- A girl who overheard part of an incident involving Florida teenager Trayvon Martin can help prove he was killed "in cold blood," an attorney for Martin's family said Tuesday.

The girl, who was dating the 17-year-old, "completely blows (George) Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," Benjamin Crump said at a news conference.

He said the girl -- who does not wish to be identified -- "connects the dots" to describe what happened that day when she lays out what she overheard while on the phone with him.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justic...ing/index.html

[kevinpate]

I'm armchair Qb'ing a situation I've only read about, but I'm thinking this one may not end up as local hero barely survives.

There's something that just doesn't quite sit right about a semi-sorta neighborhood watch chap, with a watch program that says don't carry for us, constantly calling 911 on his patrols over time and then on a fateful night, ignoring advice from 911 to not pursue and pursuing with a mindset of 'those [bleeps] always get away.' And rut rho shaggy, turns out it may not be simply the word of the shooter after all.

This has some markers to suggest a tv movie made from the available info might just play out more than a wee bit like Big Game Hunter than it would Saving Zimmerman.

[Questor]

OK, I'll bite. Why yikes?

It's obvious... I don't know that this is the case, but let's go ahead and assume that the Sanford Police Department is acting in good faith and is genuinely confused/doesn't feel that it has any evidence that rises to the level of probable cause to arrest Zimmerman, and that is because of the Stand Your Ground Law. If we have the same law, and that confusion/barrier is real, then that means someone here could do the same... act aggressively, and then when someone responds to defend themselves kill that person in cold blood and get away scott-free. That is what I find concerning.

The OKC equivalent would be you're strolling along in Bricktown taking in the sites by yourself when suddenly you notice someone following you... you think they're a bum or someone up to no good. You turn around and the guy is up in your face asking you who you are and what you are doing there. Maybe he puts his hands on you. You are afraid for what this guy is going to do; he has his hands on you; so you throw a few punches to get free and/or make him go away. In response he pulls out a gun and kills you. The police arrive and he tells them whatever... he was just asking for some money, he was trying to tell you something, he thought you were up to no good, etc... that he just walked up to see what you were all about and you started throwing punches at him and he was cornered and his life felt threatened. Clearly you were the aggressor and were out to kill him, so he was just defending himself. Unfortunately it was late and no security cameras or witnesses saw anything. There are fleeting reports of what some people think they heard. Seems like the same scenario to me. If we have the same law here and the same logic that is so far holding up in Sanford, FL were to hold up here then the murderer in this story gets away. I find that very disturbing.

Now it could be that the Sanford Police Department is not acting in good faith, or it could be that they are incompetent and don't understand the so-called "aggressor clause" of that law. If that ends up being the case then I will be less concerned about that law. But then we as a society have to deal with the fact that the family's racism claims may be justified, or that the police force there is horribly, horribly incompetent. I suppose the bigger question that comes out of that is whether or not this was just an isolated incident in a nice upscale suburban community, or if some of these issues might be more widespread across suburbia nation-wide. These implications are also disturbing.

[MadMonk]

I think the fact that this case is so shocking highlights how rare of an occurrence this type of event is. From what I've read, Zimmerman appears to have had a chip on his shoulder for some time. Clearly, he was not in fear of his life, having continued following the victim. The kid wasn't armed and his claim of self defense seems a bit thin. I don't know what the issue is with the police department though.

[Roadhawg]

I think the fact that this case is so shocking highlights how rare of an occurrence this type of event is. From what I've read, Zimmerman appears to have had a chip on his shoulder for some time. Clearly, he was not in fear of his life, having continued following the victim. The kid wasn't armed and his claim of self defense seems a bit thin. I don't know what the issue is with the police department though.

More than likely the former police department.