Steelyard

[Just the facts]

Too many of you are trying to apply the suburban apartment model to downtown apartments. They aren't the same. Suburban apartments get run down because someone builds newer apartments further out. If you build towards the core there is no where else to go but up. The expansion of suburbia is nothing more than operation rolling ghetto.

[Spartan]

I don't know of too many cities that worry about having affordable downtown housing. Again, the risk is what is done to make it affordable. Do we give them a pass on making the structure entirely brick, despite it being in Bricktown? Or, do they cut corners elsewhere? Do we end up with a shoddy apartment complex that even those who want affordable housing won't want to live in 10 years from now? Does our 4.5 million in tax monies allow them to build affordable housing that doesn't look or act affordable? Or, do they still build poor quality housing despite the subsidy and pocket the profits? It's tricky to oversee to make sure that doesn't happen. Again, I like to see new projects downtown, but I want them to stand the test of time, and sometimes that doesn't go along with the affordable concept. What's affordable in Manhattan, downtown Chicago or San Francisco? When I was a young adult, my affordable near downtown housing in Denver was an aged townhouse that had fallen into disrepair, in a neighborhood that was barely gentrified. I didn't think it was my birthright to have the local taxpayers subsidize a new building with all the amenities.

No offense, but I think affordable housing developments are entitled to at least as much incentives as high-end developments have been.

[ChaseDweller]

As the parent of an ACM@UCO student, I say YES!! to more affordable downtown apartments.

[betts]

No offense, but I think affordable housing developments are entitled to at least as much incentives as high-end developments have been.

No offense taken if you meant none. I'm fine with affordable housing being given the same incentives as high end housing, as long as they're built for the same longevity. The aged townhouse I lived in on Capitol Hill in Denver was still standing (and has since been renovated) because it was quality construction. We have lots of close in housing in The Plaza Disrict, Jefferson Park, Gatewood etc and that's the kind of housing and distance from the CBD most people wanting affordable housing but proximity to downtown get in other cities. And if I were an ACM adminstrator, I'd built university housing for my students who want to live adjacent to campus.

[betts]

Too many of you are trying to apply the suburban apartment model to downtown apartments. They aren't the same. Suburban apartments get run down because someone builds newer apartments further out. If you build towards the core there is no where else to go but up. The expansion of suburbia is nothing more than operation rolling ghetto.

I hope you're right, but I wonder what the Legacy will look like in 20 years.

[Rover]

Too many of you are trying to apply the suburban apartment model to downtown apartments. They aren't the same. Suburban apartments get run down because someone builds newer apartments further out. If you build towards the core there is no where else to go but up. The expansion of suburbia is nothing more than operation rolling ghetto.

Shoddy construction is shoddy construction, no matter where. Since we would hope downtown will be more sustaining, let's hope we get a durably constructed product here.

JTF, your hatred of suburban living and your insistence that everyone wants to live in a box downtown clouds your objectivity. There are many suburbs all over this country that have sustained beautifully and retained great value. And there are deteriorated and awful urban cores in many cities. Bad is bad wherever located. There are many urban slums and suburban slums. The issue is what this project will be. We don't have to take an overreaching overly-pius view of every project. At a rental rate of $1 or less per foot, there could be some concern as to the quality of the construction. Let's wait and see when we have more info.

I agree with Betts...in most cities the students, entry level workers, etc. don't live in the newly constructed and best located spaces. They often have to choose between location and space. Many live 2 or 3 or 4 to an apartment to make it affordable if they want a better location and nicer place. I know students in NYC who sleep in shifts to afford to be there. And the taxi drivers don't live in Manhattan, they live in Queens or the Bronx. It would be great if we can get a quality yet cheap housing solution near in, but the last thing we want is another disguised suburban apartment building plopped down in the core.

[soonerguru]

No offense, but I think affordable housing developments are entitled to at least as much incentives as high-end developments have been.

I agree completely.

[Steve]

Guys, there's more to this story - finer details I couldn't get in with space available. The grant is part of the federal stimulus and only requires that a percentage be "affordable" - meaning rent of less than $1 a square foot - which is actually market rate in the suburbs. It will go toward purchase of the land and allow for the rather expensive relocation of sewer lines on the site. Everything I've seen indicates this will be, quality wise, fairly competitive with other downtown rental and be at least as good if not better than Deep Deuce Apartments and Legacy. As for the exterior finish, remember this is Bricktown, the most stringent of all the urban design committees. They held Hampton Inn, McDonald's and others to a high standard and wouldn't relent. They also forced Chris Johnson to up his game quite a bit, though I'll be the first to admit what he's doing still won't have a lot of admirers on this site or elsewhere downtown. But there was only so much they could do, legally, to keep him tied up.
Obviously the ultimate resolution of this debate will be the final product.

[Spartan]

Betts, I only said "no offense," because I know I'm disagreeing with you on an issue that is personally important for you.

Shoddy construction is shoddy construction, no matter where. Since we would hope downtown will be more sustaining, let's hope we get a durably constructed product here.

I agree, and you know I'll be out on the front lines if we end up looking at shoddy construction.

[BoulderSooner]

Guys, there's more to this story - finer details I couldn't get in with space available. The grant is part of the federal stimulus and only requires that a percentage be "affordable" - meaning rent of less than $1 a square foot - which is actually market rate in the suburbs. It will go toward purchase of the land and allow for the rather expensive relocation of sewer lines on the site. Everything I've seen indicates this will be, quality wise, fairly competitive with other downtown rental and be at least as good if not better than Deep Deuce Apartments and Legacy. As for the exterior finish, remember this is Bricktown, the most stringent of all the urban design committees. They held Hampton Inn, McDonald's and others to a high standard and wouldn't relent. They also forced Chris Johnson to up his game quite a bit, though I'll be the first to admit what he's doing still won't have a lot of admirers on this site or elsewhere downtown. But there was only so much they could do, legally, to keep him tied up.
Obviously the ultimate resolution of this debate will be the final product.

thanks for adding this steve .. you saved me from posting most of this ..... this project has been in the works for a long time the 4.5 mil of federal money has a time limit and while it was targeted for the core to shore area clearly that is not going to be developed in the short term ... the vote that will be in the city council will be to change the area that the federal money can be spent ... this will be a great project and i can't wait for it to get started

[Steve]

The expense of moving the sewer line, from everything I'm seeing and hearing, makes this sort of arrangement the only way to make anything significant (other than a sea of surface parking) possible on this property.

[Spartan]

I was thinking over breakfast at all of the amazing development that's starting to sweep across downtown, and I had a profound idea, I think: Why don't this development and Chris Johnson do a land swap?

[jbrown84]

I was thinking over breakfast at all of the amazing development that's starting to sweep across downtown, and I had a profound idea, I think: Why don't this development and Chris Johnson do a land swap?

Ha. Perfect!!

[UnFrSaKn]

Negotiations to proceed for $4.5 million grant for Bricktown housing

BY STEVE LACKMEYER slackmeyer@opubco.com
Published: March 7, 2012

An Oklahoma City Council committee unanimously agreed Tuesday to allow city planners to begin negotiating an agreement for $4.5 million in federal Neighborhood Stabilization Program funds to be used in building a 249-unit apartment complex in east Bricktown.

[mcca7596]

The key thing to take away from that article is that rents would start at $568 according to the terms of the grant.

[Urbanized]

Ran into Bob Meinders last night at the Thunder game and we talked at length about this development during halftime. He was very excited about the project, tempered with understandable caution. I don't imagine he'd want all of the details blurted out on a message board, but Steve's reporting appears to be on point, as usual.

[LandRunOkie]

I wonder if news of this development will slow down momentum of sales at the Hill. I also wonder why the Hill people didn't see this coming and get this land from Meinders early on, as it is the largest unpaved & undeveloped lot in Bricktown.

[Steve]

I don't know of too many cities that worry about having affordable downtown housing. Again, the risk is what is done to make it affordable. Do we give them a pass on making the structure entirely brick, despite it being in Bricktown? Or, do they cut corners elsewhere? Do we end up with a shoddy apartment complex that even those who want affordable housing won't want to live in 10 years from now? Does our 4.5 million in tax monies allow them to build affordable housing that doesn't look or act affordable? Or, do they still build poor quality housing despite the subsidy and pocket the profits? It's tricky to oversee to make sure that doesn't happen. Again, I like to see new projects downtown, but I want them to stand the test of time, and sometimes that doesn't go along with the affordable concept. What's affordable in Manhattan, downtown Chicago or San Francisco? When I was a young adult, my affordable near downtown housing in Denver was an aged townhouse that had fallen into disrepair, in a neighborhood that was barely gentrified. I didn't think it was my birthright to have the local taxpayers subsidize a new building with all the amenities.

Betts, I've asked Brooks and Burnett about this. They are aware their project will be subject to the same Bricktown Urban Design standards that governed the Hampton Inn, McDonald's and other projects that were forced to up their brick facade use. They say their facade will be mostly brick.
I think there is also a lot of misunderstanding about what this grand will and won't do...

[Just the facts]

I wonder if news of this development will slow down momentum of sales at the Hill. I also wonder why the Hill people didn't see this coming and get this land from Meinders early on, as it is the largest unpaved & undeveloped lot in Bricktown.

It actually should help because it will provide future buyers for people currently living at The Hill and will hopefully attract more 'basic needs' suppliers to the area. One of the great things about urban living in an area with multiple levels of housing is that people can live their entire life in the same neighborhood as the life situation and economic levels change. A student might live in the East Brciktown Complex today, move to The Level after graduation, then get married and buy a unit at The Hill. All the while they can eat in the same restraunts and even sit at the same seat. In 30 years they can watch their kids sit in the same booth with their family. They might even get to know the owner and service staff by name.

[dankrutka]

Could they reserve the most affordable prices for ACM@UCO students? It would be cool if a couple floors were student housing.

[betts]

I wonder if news of this development will slow down momentum of sales at the Hill. I also wonder why the Hill people didn't see this coming and get this land from Meinders early on, as it is the largest unpaved & undeveloped lot in Bricktown.

I think that the people buying at the Hill would have the same concerns I have. Is this going to be a high quality development, or will it, sooner rather than later, be an ugly run-down property? That would affect their property values somewhat, although anyone living in an urban area has to accept the fact that you don't get the uniformity of neighbors that you would expect in the suburbs. After all, they've got the Broadway Extension as one of their neighbors, and I have Ruedy's Garage, something that would never be tolerated by a suburban dweller in homes of those prices. That still wouldn't make me excited about a badly built development. However, Steve has allayed many of my concerns. Thanks!

If the implication is that people would rather rent than buy, and people will choose to live in the new development rather than buying at the Hill, I think you're probably looking at two different populations

[kevinpate]

Could they reserve the most affordable prices for ACM@UCO students? It would be cool if a couple floors were student housing.

I suppose they could if there was someone to guarantee income on the units. From the operator perspective, unemployed or part-time employed students are not stronger tenants than the steadily employed service professionals or hotel housekeepers or entry level DT clerks.

[G.Walker]

I think the project will turn out fine. With financial help securing the land, and with facade being mostly brick, more than likely they will cut corners on the inside. With the Edge @ Midtown being mostly brick, it very well could be like The Edge @ Midtown, but with cheaper fixtures and amenities.

[Just the facts]

Just a reminder - only a small percentage of the units will be 'affordable'. I don't think there will be 'cheaper' anything. The guidelines I have seen suggest that no more than 10% of any development should be dedicated to 'affordable' housing- which in this case would be in the 20 unit range. One of the goals of urban development is to avoid the concentration of people based on income levels. That is what suburbia is for and what New Urbanism is trying to correct.

[BoulderSooner]

Negotiations to proceed for $4.5 million grant for Bricktown housing

BY STEVE LACKMEYER slackmeyer@opubco.com
Published: March 7, 2012

An Oklahoma City Council committee unanimously agreed Tuesday to allow city planners to begin negotiating an agreement for $4.5 million in federal Neighborhood Stabilization Program funds to be used in building a 249-unit apartment complex in east Bricktown.

thanks for the correction just the facts ..

this is on the City council Neighborhood conservation committee http://okc.gov/council/council_libra...ion/agenda.pdf

action summary is page 3 and the recap of this project is on pages 37-40

this is a 249 unit project with 38 of the units NSP3 (Neighborhood stabilization program phase three) with 8k sqft of retail

total project cost is projected at 34.6 mil (not including the hotel) pretty much the same cost as the Edge at Midtown

the property is under contract and the developer would have to close by sept 2012

the city hopes that this deal will close by july ..