Police Headquarters

[Larry OKC]

While the MAPS 3 construction will be ongoing, the tax ends at "12:00 am on January 1, 2018". Presume an election will be held a few months before that so the next MAPS (if passed) will pick up where the current one leaves off...not allowing it to lapse by even 1 day or it would be an obvious tax increase even though the rate would remain unchanged...yeah, I know it is a game of semantics, but a game that the City knows very well how to play. Just like this MAPS took effect immediately upon the ending of the Arena tax and it took effect immediately upon the ending of MAPS 4 Kids. We should be having a MAPS 4 election sometime in 2018, just 6 years away.

[kevinpate]

With the tax ending 01/01/18, any M4 election would come in 2017, likely fall and 5.5 years away. They won't wait until after the tax stops to have another vote

[Snowman]

With the tax ending 01/01/18, any M4 election would come in 2017, likely fall and 5.5 years away. They won't wait until after the tax stops to have another vote

Still most of the cost is being payed with 2007 bonds and they had several options presented for how to cover the rest, unless they phase the project then waiting just makes it cost more both in inflation and one of them (I think the courts) needs some expensive work done soon if a replacement is not happening in the near future.

[Urban Pioneer]

The current timeline for MAPS 3 runs through 2021 so I don't think we'll be seeing a MAPS 4 for at least 10 more years.

Yeah, but the collection itself is over 7 1/2. They will want to have an initiative in place as to not have the penny leave the scene.

I did not know 2007 bond issue money was involved. It's simply amazing all of the projects that are on the list from that election in 2007.

Still, I would not be surprised that this (or some part of it), might end up being a MAPS "carrot" of some kind.

[kevinpate]

fwiw, I'm not suggesting the court or police project will have any Maps funds. I was just addressing Larry's dates and the past practice of the city to set a new tax to take effect as the old one is expiring. To have a new collection process in place, the election has to come before 01/01/2018

[Larry OKC]

With the tax ending 01/01/18, any M4 election would come in 2017, likely fall and 5.5 years away. They won't wait until after the tax stops to have another vote

Fubar on my part...you are absolutely right...thanks for correcting it

[BDK]

From the jail article from today: "Design work is under way now for a new headquarters and municipal courts building."

Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-seek...#ixzz21BTFDXgz

Does this mean that they're back to the drawing board or just moving along with this concept?

[Just the facts]

I hope they are re-workig that entire abomination they threw out there the first time.

[Pete]

Does this mean that they're back to the drawing board or just moving along with this concept?

The original renderings we saw were just conceptual.

I'm sure they still have lots of work to do with the final design. I take this as a sign everything is moving forward.

[Just the facts]

The original renderings we saw were just conceptual.

This has always been one of my complaints with the City of OKC. Why are all of the conceptual renderings ALWAYS some crappy design that is not fit for the area. It doesn't matter if it is a boulevard, core to shore housing, the convention center, the new city jail/courthouse, or radiant apartment buildings by the river. They can never seem to move past the idea of large setbacks, 100' wide streets, buildings in a park, surface parking lots, etc. Who does these renderings or approves them to be released to the public?

[Spartan]

I hope they are re-workig that entire abomination they threw out there the first time.

You guys are so antsy over these things. Relax, this project is moving forward, not backward. It's funding is in the current GO bond package.

Kerry, how is that design an abomination? I imagine it should be updated now that the city hopes to make private development out of the old jail. I liked the modern minimalist look proposed originally. The original justice block, which we're still mostly working with, has a very cool 1940s vibe, that I think should be played up in the modern redesign.

[Just the facts]

The Civic area is all Art Deco. They need to stick with it. Historic replication should be a top priority when designing new buildings in this area. Ideally a person walking through this area shouldn't be able to tell in which decade the buildings were constructed just by looking at the architectural style.

[ljbab728]

The Civic area is all Art Deco. They need to stick with it. Historic replication should be a top priority when designing new buildings in this area. Ideally a person walking through this area shouldn't be able to tell in which decade the buildings were constructed just by looking at the architectural style.

You're absolutely correct, Kerry. It's just like some of the new construction on the OU campus which is in the same style as the much older historical buildings.

[lasomeday]

You're absolutely correct, Kerry. It's just like some of the new construction on the OU campus which is in the same style as the much older historical buildings.

Bad example, but this is Oklahoma City, they have such low standards, I doubt we will ever see an architect try to blend their building with the surrounding district.

[Spartan]

The Civic area is all Art Deco. They need to stick with it. Historic replication should be a top priority when designing new buildings in this area. Ideally a person walking through this area shouldn't be able to tell in which decade the buildings were constructed just by looking at the architectural style.

The justice area is different from the civic area. Police and historic jail are more mid-century than deco.

[Just the facts]

The justice area is different from the civic area. Police and historic jail are more mid-century than deco.

That is because previous architects screwed up. We shouldn't make new errors just becasue someone made a previous error (see elevated freeways).

[Spartan]

But then we're getting away from this area's original style, which is just a few years past deco. I agree that something directly reflecting the architectural motif of the old Police HQ and old City Jail should be built.

[Just the facts]

Now that you agree historic replication is important in defining an area (as opposed to just laying random line on a street map) I guess we can discuss which history should be replicated in new construction. Most buildings constructed in this area are Art-Deco, I say they stick with that.

[Urbanized]

JTF, you might be surprised that "historic replication" is actually frowned upon by most in the historic preservation community. The term for it is "creating a false history." Even a brick-by-brick reconstruction of a previously-demolished historic building is usually not looked kindly on.

It is absolutely possible for modern architecture to be done in a "district sensitive" way that respects the surroundings and maintains the same feel, without creating an inaccurate representation of the historical fabric. This usually involves maintaining the same setbacks and scale, paying attention to window openings and maintaining a similar rhythm, and even using similar materials. But trying to build a building that is indistinguishable from its neighbors and faking a time period is just that; fakery. Good architecture is authentic.

The problem is that in most cases respecting the surrounding district is not even considered, and the modern architecture clashes with the historic. This is why you, me, and most who value the built environment have a visceral reaction when we see a new building carelessly plopped among the old.

[Spartan]

...which is not the case with this project.

[Just the facts]

JTF, you might be surprised that "historic replication" is actually frowned upon by most in the historic preservation community. The term for it is "creating a false history." Even a brick-by-brick reconstruction of a previously-demolished historic building is usually not looked kindly on.

It is absolutely possible for modern architecture to be done in a "district sensitive" way that respects the surroundings and maintains the same feel, without creating an inaccurate representation of the historical fabric. This usually involves maintaining the same setbacks and scale, paying attention to window openings and maintaining a similar rhythm, and even using similar materials. But trying to build a building that is indistinguishable from its neighbors and faking a time period is just that; fakery. Good architecture is authentic.

The problem is that in most cases respecting the surrounding district is not even considered, and the modern architecture clashes with the historic. This is why you, me, and most who value the built environment have a visceral reaction when we see a new building carelessly plopped among the old.

So historic preservationsit are saying Victorian London shouldn't exist at all because it is all historic replication of Italy and Greece?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inigo_Jones

How about the great public buildings of Philadelphia built in the early 1900's, should they not exist either because they represent a fake history? This building was constructed in 1927 but I will take this style over that of the Ron Norric library any day; they aren't even in the same class. In 50 years the Free Library will still be classic and the Ron Norric library will look like a steamy pile of 1990's ****.

[Rover]

So the only designs that are worthwhile and lasting are the ancient ones? LOL. Some of us actually like contemporary and some prefer ancient. Imagine that. I agree with Urbanized that there doesn't have to be "same" to be harmonious.

OKC suffers from such a short history that it doesn't really have "districts" of distinct periods. It may have a building or a few clumped together, but nothing that is of enough mass to create a period look...save maybe Paseo. So, even if you want to strictly maintain or expand period areas, you really have to CREATE period areas with lots of fake buildings.

[Just the facts]

I'm not saying every building OKC has to be the same style - just the public building around the Civic District. Even ODOT, as crappy as they are at design, managed to make the new I-40 bridges Art Deco. Are we now saying they aren't 'real' bridges?

[Urbanized]

JTF, Neoclassical architecture was a movement in its own right; though it took heavy styling cues from Greek and Roman architecture it wasn't identical. But it is now also a style of the past. Depending upon the circumstances, you almost never would want to erect a new building in that precise style. However if it were integrated into a district it would be entirely appropriate to use elements or styling cues that bring the adjacent styles to mind.

Just because a building is modern doesn't mean it has to look like the Norick Library or some other particular style you may or may not like. The Oklahoma City Museum of Art is a great example of modern architecture blending in with the built environment, taking on a portion of a historic facade, using similar if not identical materials, respecting the historic building it incorporated/replaced, and adding to the fabric without detracting from it.

[Rover]

Well said, Urbanized.