And no BassPro!!!
And no BassPro!!!
But that was my point. We ARE continuing momentum. Development is STILL going on from the first MAPS (almost 20 years later). Successful development leads to other development. Now if Devon Tower were to suddenly go dark that could definitely put things in neutral or reverse, but something sort of that, I just don't see it happening. Even with the economic factors that OKC largely avoided (relatively speaking), it killed a proposed project or two but we are starting to see the ones that were put in suspended animation, come back.
Rover,
To a certain degree the junkie analogy is appropriate. It was Bennett's experience and expectation that significant public subsidy was a given and as he put it "appropriate". It was that way when he was involved with the RedHawks. It was that way with every NBA team he had been involved with (Spurs/Hornets/Sonics).
What you say is all well and good IF the "strings" are left in place, but seems that the strings are cut, the employer doesn't have to live up to their end of the agreement and the debt is "forgiven" (Dell is a case in point). Then they engage in revisionist history and claim the terms of the deal were met (when the City's own site indicates otherwise). Now I can't speak definitively if Dell is an isolated case or the norm.
Then you have the case where the strings appear to be very one-sided (as with the Thunder lease). Seems all of the requirements are on the City side of the deal. At least from reading the multi-page Letter of Intent several times and the actual Lease Agreements, that seems to be the case.
We were told that City paid for NBA Practice Facilities are just "expected" and that taxpayer subsidized arenas are the norm. While they may be expected or wanted, they aren't required. Can't speak to the percentage of public financed Practice Facilities, but when it came to NBA arenas, while it is true that the vast majority had some level of public subsidy, it was fairly evenly split with those that were above/below the 50% threshold with about the same number of arenas that had 10% or less in public financing as those that had at least 90% (with OKC being added to the 100% list). Some arenas had ZERO public financing. Even Denver's arena (which Bennett was using as a model for his new Seattle arena demand was only 3% public financed. on one hand the owners claim that Arenas are a slam dunk for Cities and if that was the case, then owners should be climbing all over themselves to build their own facilities where they can rightfully reap all of the revenues. Yet Bennett doesn't think an arena can be run at a profit (I have the article), so he doesn't want to pay for it. Laughable part about that is that the Ford runs at an operational profit (but due to concerts more than anything else). When it comes to the NBA, the Ford is "break even" operationally (with an ever so slight profit). But Bennett wants to sit back and get revenue from a building they didn't build, pay for the improvements etc. Perfect example is naming rights. Not only for the arena but the practice facility.
Then there is the case of Bass Pro where we were given the same "we have to do it to be competitive" line and reporting at the time stated that the Tulsa area got theirs without the same incentives. Just as the Thunder was shrewd in their contract writing, Bass Pro made sure that that the non-compete, only one location in the state clause was removed from the OKC deal.
I hope you are correct and we won't be expected to come up with the $50MM (mol) that has been floated about. Hopefully it can come down to the City just providing the land or some other non-cash incentive. How many of the 7(?) DT hotels have received that kind of cash incentives to build were they did? I know of the Skirvin but that was a unique deal that if the City had not been involved, would have most assuredly met the fate of the wrecking ball. But I agree that most businesses do get some form of incentives.
Case in point is the Outlet Mall where a rebate of sorts is going to be given to the Mall's owners on their marketing expenses and/or sales tax revenues (sorry don't have all of the details handy right now)
Who owned the factory that was built with the bond money? Are they still here and providing jobs? Or did they take the money and run (immediately or after a few years)? Am thinking along the lines of state tax credits that are routinely sold to others and the company folds and leaves the state high and dry (Great Plains Airline). Or the MG plant deal that was supposed to be happening down in Ardmore(?)
I wonder why we can't put the hotel on top of the convention center. If it's only going to be two stories, why not go up even more?
I agree Betts, instead of thinking flat, they should go up, OKC can change the game with this convention center, and make it unique from traditional convention center architecture.
We need to build the hotel "flat" too... spread those 800 - 1000 rooms all over the CBD...great infill projects!! (I kid)
Up, up, up!
Developer: Building hotel by convention center poses challenges
By Brian Brus
Journal Record
Oklahoma City reporter - Contact: brian.brus@journalrecord.com / 405-278-2837 / https://twitter.com/JRBrianBrus
Posted: 09:08 PM Friday, November 4, 2011
OKLAHOMA CITY – The success of the new convention center promised in the voter-approved MAPS 3 tax issue will rely heavily on access to a hotel nearby, developer John D. Williams said.
He said an appropriate hotel will cost about $150 million – well over half the price of the convention center’s price tag of $252 million. City leaders said big names in the hospitality industry have already started inquiring about development.
“The convention center hotel is the big elephant in the room, so to speak,” Williams recently told attendees at the Greater
Oklahoma City Chamber’s annual Breaking Through Luncheon. “To make a convention center work, you need a large hotel adjacent to it. … And here’s a staggering number: To build a 600-room hotel, with the appropriate meeting space, garage, public areas and all that stuff, runs about a quarter of a million (dollars) a (room) key.
“So it’s going to be a tricky thing to get a 600-room hotel built in Oklahoma City,” he said. “But absolutely, positively, we must do this.”
Mayor Mick Cornett has said that during preliminary planning for the MAPS 3 package of infrastructure projects, city officials expected a hotel would be developed near the convention center. However, the hotel itself was not part of the $777 temporary tax issue and was infrequently cited in public discussions. Councilman Ed Shadid has since raised questions in his first year in office about a 2009 study commissioned by the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber that said the convention center would need about 650 rooms in a hotel nearby to be successful, and that such a project would require public subsidies of about $50 million.
A citizen advisory board decided this year that the convention center should be built at the site of a defunct Ford dealership just south of the Myriad Gardens. Williams and others have said that when it’s time for the hotel to go up, it will need to be very near the convention center, and if not directly adjacent then within walking distance. The decision on a hotel site is still at least a year ahead and will depend on the creative input of designers and interested developers.
“Proximity is important,” said Mike Carrier, president of the Oklahoma Convention & Visitors Bureau. “I’ve been in this business almost 30 years. I’ve never had a meeting planner tell me that they want a hotel anywhere other than on top of a convention center. If it can’t be on top, they want it attached and adjacent. If they can’t have that, they want it across the street.”
Williams said a hotel of that size and importance would probably be developed by a major player such as Marriott, Hilton, Omni or Starwood and its sub-brands such as Sheraton.
“There have been a number of meetings with various national hotel companies to inform them of what we’re doing, the process that we’ll be going through and things of that nature,” Carrier said. “And there’s interest from all of the major hotel companies. But nothing specific yet that we can discuss.”
The convention center is scheduled to open in late 2018. Carrier said his organization and others involved in the project will start working on hotel development within the next year to 18 months, with a lot of work prior to that.
“There will be discussion with a variety of interests,” he said. “And I’m sure that once we, as a city, let people know that we are moving forward, there will be developers and companies step forward to ask questions.
“Experts and analysts around the country know about markets that are doing well,” he said. “That’s part of the reason we have seen such a significant increase in the number of hotels that we have here.”
Williams said the metro area’s hotel industry has stabilized and is now upbeat after weathering the recession. Oklahoma City alone has 16,000 hotel rooms available on any given night at 154 properties, he said. The Sheraton downtown is the largest, with nearly 400 rooms. The only hotel now under construction in the market won’t open until January 2013.
So they're trying to tell us that the Convention Center Hotel won't be as big as speculated or am I misunderstanding?
No, MDot. It's not about the city being greedy. It's about getting what is necessary to assure that the convention center is successful. And nobody knows for sure at this point how it would be funded. It could be totally private, totally public, or some combination of public and private money. There is currently no public money designated for a hotel.
Mdot, are you Thunders half brother?
Seems like Hyatt, Westin, or Omni would be the logical choice.
Don't Edmond My Downtown
I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being Omni. They have a major presence in the north Texas area, being based just down the highway out of Irving, TX. They also recently completed a few convention center hotel projects in Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta and Ft. Worth. So they seem ambitious in convention center business, moreover it would give them a chance to establish a presence in Oklahoma for the first time.
Exactly. I'd prefer a Hyatt or Westin, but Omni is a solid brand as well. I doubt Marriott would put yet another hotel downtown.
Don't Edmond My Downtown
So if this hotel was to be a highrise with 600 rooms how tall are we talking about?
I say go mixed uses with a 2 story retail arcade, convention space on the third floor connected by skywalk to the main convention center, then 10 floors of office space, 20 floors of hotel, topped by 5 floors of residential, and capped with an upscale bar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Place
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