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Thread: Convention Center

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    I think Larry said it well before me, I just wanted to say that I don't think government handouts equate to "momentum." And that's what we're talking about here with this hotel. A $20,000,000.00 giveaway must not be construed as the only way we can continue the "momentum." Tax dollars to private business to help capitalize their private endeavors maybe had its place to jumpstart progress, but I fail to see how (to follow the analogy a few posts back) "continuing the medicine" does anything but addict the patient. Local government was never meant to be a piggy bank for hoteliers. The local stimulus that the people of this city provided with MAPS is enough. If business can't figure out how to make it from here without more handouts, then something is wrong with the whole idea of free markets. It either works - or it doesn't. It's funny how so many "conservatives" have accepted that the free market simply won't work in downtown Oklahoma City and that any "momentum" connected with anything private still requires giveaways. I appreciate the other argument, I just fundamentally disagree.
    I find your debunking of the medical analogy an interesting exposure of your mind set. Like you assume we are creating junkies by offering insulin to diabetics, or blood pressure medicine to hypertensives.

    I think some people are out of touch with what is actually happening to get deals done in the world and also think everyone in the world thinks as highly of OKC as we do ourselves. Because we are making progress doesn't mean we have arrived. Being competitive is still a requisite.

    I also find it laughable that that people object to "handouts" yet have no clue how many companies in OKC are actually assisted in one way or another. I worked for many years for a manufacturing plant that moved to OKC with the help of bond monies that built their factory and put hundreds to work. Now, I guess the difference is that they aren't a "hotel", so it is justified. People get myopic I guess, and only consider the good "handouts" as ones they either don't know about or ones they benefit from.

    Trust me, if OKC is such a slam dunk economically then the hotels won't need or want the handout. They don't want strings attached either. But if there aren't developers who come forward and we intend to compete, we will have to offer incentives. It is done every day.

  2. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Rover,

    To a certain degree the junkie analogy is appropriate. It was Bennett's experience and expectation that significant public subsidy was a given and as he put it "appropriate". It was that way when he was involved with the RedHawks. It was that way with every NBA team he had been involved with (Spurs/Hornets/Sonics).

    What you say is all well and good IF the "strings" are left in place, but seems that the strings are cut, the employer doesn't have to live up to their end of the agreement and the debt is "forgiven" (Dell is a case in point). Then they engage in revisionist history and claim the terms of the deal were met (when the City's own site indicates otherwise). Now I can't speak definitively if Dell is an isolated case or the norm.

    Then you have the case where the strings appear to be very one-sided (as with the Thunder lease). Seems all of the requirements are on the City side of the deal. At least from reading the multi-page Letter of Intent several times and the actual Lease Agreements, that seems to be the case.

    We were told that City paid for NBA Practice Facilities are just "expected" and that taxpayer subsidized arenas are the norm. While they may be expected or wanted, they aren't required. Can't speak to the percentage of public financed Practice Facilities, but when it came to NBA arenas, while it is true that the vast majority had some level of public subsidy, it was fairly evenly split with those that were above/below the 50% threshold with about the same number of arenas that had 10% or less in public financing as those that had at least 90% (with OKC being added to the 100% list). Some arenas had ZERO public financing. Even Denver's arena (which Bennett was using as a model for his new Seattle arena demand was only 3% public financed. on one hand the owners claim that Arenas are a slam dunk for Cities and if that was the case, then owners should be climbing all over themselves to build their own facilities where they can rightfully reap all of the revenues. Yet Bennett doesn't think an arena can be run at a profit (I have the article), so he doesn't want to pay for it. Laughable part about that is that the Ford runs at an operational profit (but due to concerts more than anything else). When it comes to the NBA, the Ford is "break even" operationally (with an ever so slight profit). But Bennett wants to sit back and get revenue from a building they didn't build, pay for the improvements etc. Perfect example is naming rights. Not only for the arena but the practice facility.

    Then there is the case of Bass Pro where we were given the same "we have to do it to be competitive" line and reporting at the time stated that the Tulsa area got theirs without the same incentives. Just as the Thunder was shrewd in their contract writing, Bass Pro made sure that that the non-compete, only one location in the state clause was removed from the OKC deal.

    I hope you are correct and we won't be expected to come up with the $50MM (mol) that has been floated about. Hopefully it can come down to the City just providing the land or some other non-cash incentive. How many of the 7(?) DT hotels have received that kind of cash incentives to build were they did? I know of the Skirvin but that was a unique deal that if the City had not been involved, would have most assuredly met the fate of the wrecking ball. But I agree that most businesses do get some form of incentives.

    Case in point is the Outlet Mall where a rebate of sorts is going to be given to the Mall's owners on their marketing expenses and/or sales tax revenues (sorry don't have all of the details handy right now)

    Who owned the factory that was built with the bond money? Are they still here and providing jobs? Or did they take the money and run (immediately or after a few years)? Am thinking along the lines of state tax credits that are routinely sold to others and the company folds and leaves the state high and dry (Great Plains Airline). Or the MG plant deal that was supposed to be happening down in Ardmore(?)

  3. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I find your debunking of the medical analogy an interesting exposure of your mind set. Like you assume we are creating junkies by offering insulin to diabetics, or blood pressure medicine to hypertensives.

    I think some people are out of touch with what is actually happening to get deals done in the world and also think everyone in the world thinks as highly of OKC as we do ourselves. Because we are making progress doesn't mean we have arrived. Being competitive is still a requisite.

    I also find it laughable that that people object to "handouts" yet have no clue how many companies in OKC are actually assisted in one way or another. I worked for many years for a manufacturing plant that moved to OKC with the help of bond monies that built their factory and put hundreds to work. Now, I guess the difference is that they aren't a "hotel", so it is justified. People get myopic I guess, and only consider the good "handouts" as ones they either don't know about or ones they benefit from.

    Trust me, if OKC is such a slam dunk economically then the hotels won't need or want the handout. They don't want strings attached either. But if there aren't developers who come forward and we intend to compete, we will have to offer incentives. It is done every day.
    Well, I hate it that you can't just see that we disagree as opposed to portraying me as ignorant and someone who simply is "out of touch." There's no need for that.

    You misread my "mindset" comparing the insulin to addiction. My point in that post was that insulin is forever. And that's what it looks like we're headed. The addiction point kicks in when someone is given benzos or some such drug and needs the drug (or at least wants the drug) without any plan to wean them off of the drug (city handouts). If I didn't explain that well earlier, I am sorry - I would never construe insulin and diabetes with being a junkie. That doesn't even make sense. But the analogy that was thrown out in a post about the city being on medicine and to stop now would "kill the patient" was a false analogy as any business coming here doesn't need insulin - but they sure seem to be addicted to benzos.

    There may have been a need for a massive injection to jumpstart progress downtown - and we did that. I just fundamentally disagree that it's a good idea to keep on doing that ad infinitum until it is "just expected" (see Larry's post before mine). I remember very well the opposition to the original MAPS saying the city's so-called "temporary" tax hike was a lie and that city leaders knew it. Well, for better or worse, who was right? (I supported the original MAPS, by the way). But the opposition was right as per the tax hike. Now, it seems to be accepted with all the "it's just a penny" talk. The fact is - it's become a permanent tax to use as a feeding trough for private business and I just think that's wrong. We just disagree.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    Well, I hate it that you can't just see that we disagree as opposed to portraying me as ignorant and someone who simply is "out of touch." There's no need for that.

    You misread my "mindset" comparing the insulin to addiction. My point in that post was that insulin is forever. And that's what it looks like we're headed. The addiction point kicks in when someone is given benzos or some such drug and needs the drug (or at least wants the drug) without any plan to wean them off of the drug (city handouts). If I didn't explain that well earlier, I am sorry - I would never construe insulin and diabetes with being a junkie. That doesn't even make sense. But the analogy that was thrown out in a post about the city being on medicine and to stop now would "kill the patient" was a false analogy as any business coming here doesn't need insulin - but they sure seem to be addicted to benzos.

    There may have been a need for a massive injection to jumpstart progress downtown - and we did that. I just fundamentally disagree that it's a good idea to keep on doing that ad infinitum until it is "just expected" (see Larry's post before mine). I remember very well the opposition to the original MAPS saying the city's so-called "temporary" tax hike was a lie and that city leaders knew it. Well, for better or worse, who was right? (I supported the original MAPS, by the way). But the opposition was right as per the tax hike. Now, it seems to be accepted with all the "it's just a penny" talk. The fact is - it's become a permanent tax to use as a feeding trough for private business and I just think that's wrong. We just disagree.
    I agree that we just disagree. I am sorry if my portrayal was that you are ignorant. I certainly don't think that is the case. However, I do believe this city has a chance to either compete or not. If we are willing to go back to the days in OKC where we chose to do nothing to compete and that is what we are about, then so be it. Subsequent to those decades, unfortunately we have found out the cost for catching up is high. If we have truly arrived at the top of the heap that some on here think then this discussion is a mute point...we will get a prominent hotel developer to develop an appropriate hotel designed for conference use as a core piece to the city. In fact, if we are where some think we will have several bidding on it. OR, we will have another Hampton Inn with window air-conditioners and hot plate breakfasts for our convention center hotel and that will define what our city is about...cheap, functional and little else.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by Reno and Walker View Post
    The west side of the CC would make much more sence... Everthing must go West!!! I want to know what developer is buying the property at 500 block of SW 3rd I had a commercial realtor drop a hint of a buyer buy would not tell me . Any info.. he said it was going to be big..
    Well since you know that the developer is dealing with a commercial realtor, it could be for office development...

  6. #106

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    I wonder why we can't put the hotel on top of the convention center. If it's only going to be two stories, why not go up even more?

  7. #107

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    I agree Betts, instead of thinking flat, they should go up, OKC can change the game with this convention center, and make it unique from traditional convention center architecture.

  8. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    We need to build the hotel "flat" too... spread those 800 - 1000 rooms all over the CBD...great infill projects!! (I kid)

  9. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Up, up, up!

  10. #110

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Developer: Building hotel by convention center poses challenges
    By Brian Brus
    Journal Record
    Oklahoma City reporter - Contact: brian.brus@journalrecord.com / 405-278-2837 / https://twitter.com/JRBrianBrus
    Posted: 09:08 PM Friday, November 4, 2011

    OKLAHOMA CITY – The success of the new convention center promised in the voter-approved MAPS 3 tax issue will rely heavily on access to a hotel nearby, developer John D. Williams said.

    He said an appropriate hotel will cost about $150 million – well over half the price of the convention center’s price tag of $252 million. City leaders said big names in the hospitality industry have already started inquiring about development.

    “The convention center hotel is the big elephant in the room, so to speak,” Williams recently told attendees at the Greater
    Oklahoma City Chamber’s annual Breaking Through Luncheon. “To make a convention center work, you need a large hotel adjacent to it. … And here’s a staggering number: To build a 600-room hotel, with the appropriate meeting space, garage, public areas and all that stuff, runs about a quarter of a million (dollars) a (room) key.

    “So it’s going to be a tricky thing to get a 600-room hotel built in Oklahoma City,” he said. “But absolutely, positively, we must do this.”

    Mayor Mick Cornett has said that during preliminary planning for the MAPS 3 package of infrastructure projects, city officials expected a hotel would be developed near the convention center. However, the hotel itself was not part of the $777 temporary tax issue and was infrequently cited in public discussions. Councilman Ed Shadid has since raised questions in his first year in office about a 2009 study commissioned by the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber that said the convention center would need about 650 rooms in a hotel nearby to be successful, and that such a project would require public subsidies of about $50 million.

    A citizen advisory board decided this year that the convention center should be built at the site of a defunct Ford dealership just south of the Myriad Gardens. Williams and others have said that when it’s time for the hotel to go up, it will need to be very near the convention center, and if not directly adjacent then within walking distance. The decision on a hotel site is still at least a year ahead and will depend on the creative input of designers and interested developers.

    “Proximity is important,” said Mike Carrier, president of the Oklahoma Convention & Visitors Bureau. “I’ve been in this business almost 30 years. I’ve never had a meeting planner tell me that they want a hotel anywhere other than on top of a convention center. If it can’t be on top, they want it attached and adjacent. If they can’t have that, they want it across the street.”

    Williams said a hotel of that size and importance would probably be developed by a major player such as Marriott, Hilton, Omni or Starwood and its sub-brands such as Sheraton.

    “There have been a number of meetings with various national hotel companies to inform them of what we’re doing, the process that we’ll be going through and things of that nature,” Carrier said. “And there’s interest from all of the major hotel companies. But nothing specific yet that we can discuss.”

    The convention center is scheduled to open in late 2018. Carrier said his organization and others involved in the project will start working on hotel development within the next year to 18 months, with a lot of work prior to that.

    “There will be discussion with a variety of interests,” he said. “And I’m sure that once we, as a city, let people know that we are moving forward, there will be developers and companies step forward to ask questions.

    “Experts and analysts around the country know about markets that are doing well,” he said. “That’s part of the reason we have seen such a significant increase in the number of hotels that we have here.”

    Williams said the metro area’s hotel industry has stabilized and is now upbeat after weathering the recession. Oklahoma City alone has 16,000 hotel rooms available on any given night at 154 properties, he said. The Sheraton downtown is the largest, with nearly 400 rooms. The only hotel now under construction in the market won’t open until January 2013.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    Williams said the metro area’s hotel industry has stabilized and is now upbeat after weathering the recession. Oklahoma City alone has 16,000 hotel rooms available on any given night at 154 properties, he said. The Sheraton downtown is the largest, with nearly 400 rooms. The only hotel now under construction in the market won’t open until January 2013.
    Maybe this just wasn't stated the way he meant because the Biltmore with 506 rooms is OKC's largest. I'm guessing he meant the Sheraton is the largest located downtown.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    So they're trying to tell us that the Convention Center Hotel won't be as big as speculated or am I misunderstanding?

  13. #113

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MDot View Post
    So they're trying to tell us that the Convention Center Hotel won't be as big as speculated or am I misunderstanding?
    Not necessarily, MDot. It's just that the cost may be more than some thought.

  14. #114

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    Not necessarily, MDot. It's just that the cost may be more than some thought.
    Ahhh. I wasnt't thinking of it in that sense because of how greedy the city can be sometimes or how they actually don't have enough money to build something as nice and/or big as it was hyped up to be.

  15. #115

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MDot View Post
    Ahhh. I wasnt't thinking of it in that sense because of how greedy the city can be sometimes or how they actually don't have enough money to build something as nice and/or big as it was hyped up to be.
    No, MDot. It's not about the city being greedy. It's about getting what is necessary to assure that the convention center is successful. And nobody knows for sure at this point how it would be funded. It could be totally private, totally public, or some combination of public and private money. There is currently no public money designated for a hotel.

  16. #116

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    No, MDot. It's not about the city being greedy. It's about getting what is necessary to assure that the convention center is successful. And nobody knows for sure at this point how it would be funded. It could be totally private, totally public, or some combination of public and private money. There is currently no public money designated for a hotel.
    I wasnt't saying they were being greedy ljbab728, I was saying that's why I didn't consider it because of past circumstances; I get your point, I never misunderstood after your first response. So thanks for explaining though.

  17. #117

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Mdot, are you Thunders half brother?

  18. #118

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by metro View Post
    Mdot, are you Thunders half brother?
    Haha.. I don't think so.. Maybe..?

  19. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Seems like Hyatt, Westin, or Omni would be the logical choice.
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  20. #120

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being Omni. They have a major presence in the north Texas area, being based just down the highway out of Irving, TX. They also recently completed a few convention center hotel projects in Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta and Ft. Worth. So they seem ambitious in convention center business, moreover it would give them a chance to establish a presence in Oklahoma for the first time.

  21. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Exactly. I'd prefer a Hyatt or Westin, but Omni is a solid brand as well. I doubt Marriott would put yet another hotel downtown.
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  22. #122

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    So if this hotel was to be a highrise with 600 rooms how tall are we talking about?

  23. #123

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCRT View Post
    So if this hotel was to be a highrise with 600 rooms how tall are we talking about?
    depends on the footprint. 40 rooms a floor would be a 15 story structure plus any amenity floors. If the footprint only permits 30 a floor, it'll be taller.

  24. #124

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinpate View Post
    depends on the footprint. 40 rooms a floor would be a 15 story structure plus any amenity floors. If the footprint only permits 30 a floor, it'll be taller.
    With a price tag of $150 million mentioned in the Journal Record article above, we are looking at 25+ floors easy, especially with such a small area to build on.

    Good Comparison:

    Omni Ft. Worth Convention Hotel $165M
    614 Rooms
    33 Floors (447ft)
    Built 2009

  25. #125

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Walker View Post
    With a price tag of $150 million mentioned in the Journal Record article above, we are looking at 25+ floors easy, especially with such a small area to build on.

    Good Comparison:

    Omni Ft. Worth Convention Hotel $165M
    614 Rooms
    33 Floors (447ft)
    Built 2009
    I believe that the Fort Worth hotel has several floors of condos.

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