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  1. #76

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    If Oklahoma City wants to get serious about the convention & hotel business, we are definitely going to need a large hotel in the neighborhood of 800 - 1,000 rooms. This would allow us to attract much bigger conventions and house them in one structure.

    Fifty million would be chicken feed of an investment--a hotel exceeding 800 rooms would definitely make OKC more attractive since we are equal-distant from the east coast to the west cost and smack in the middle of the U.S.A.

    If our mayor wants to blow $30 million on moving an OG&E substation; then, why not invest $50 million in incentives on attracting a 30 to 40-story hotel and really go after some first class conventions.

  2. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by Laramie View Post
    If Oklahoma City wants to get serious about the convention & hotel business, we are definitely going to need a large hotel in the neighborhood of 800 - 1,000 rooms. This would allow us to attract much bigger conventions and house them in one structure.

    Fifty million would be chicken feed of an investment--a hotel exceeding 800 rooms would definitely make OKC more attractive since we are equal-distant from the east coast to the west cost and smack in the middle of the U.S.A.

    If our mayor wants to blow $30 million on moving an OG&E substation; then, why not invest $50 million in incentives on attracting a 30 to 40-story hotel and really go after some first class conventions.
    Because I don't want my tax dollars going to the local government to hand over to private hotel developers. Times are going to get tougher for this country and we'll need to prioritize; we don't need government funding private enterprise to compete with hotels already here and operating without government subsidies. It's amazing how many "conservatives" want the government to act as the stimulus on so many things downtown. We can't afford it.

    edit: And I sure can't support the arrogant attitude of government knows best and the backroom deal ways of non-transparency 'for our own good', as proposed by Lucca above. It's that kind of thinking that make people suspicious of everything that comes from City Hall. Sometimes I think this town is as "Good Old Boy" as its ever been - just with different names and faces. But when it's written as boldly as Lucca wrote it - I fear that some will always see local government as their own private sandbox, just using the idiot citizens to pay for it all. In my opinion, it's a shame to see praise for that post and that way of thinking.

    We'll see that kind of attitude backfire. While other cities are cutting back on subsidies to business and refocusing on their primary mission, it looks like some want to milk this city dry while we lay off police officers and put them in a building fit for Timbuktu, let go of firefighters, cut back on city parks, let our roads deteriorate and generally forget that there is more to this city than frickin' downtown.

  3. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    MikeOKC - while I tend to cut local governments a lot more slack than federal governments, there is a lot of truth in what you said. 10 years ago downtown OKC had one hotel. Today it has 7 with two more in various stages of development. I only recall one of them receiving government funding but I could be wrong on that. Now all of a sudden a hotel can only be built if the city kicks in 20%, and we don't even get a restored building out of the deal.

  4. #79

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    This city didn't get to where it is today by not investing in itself. The competition out there among cities is being brought to a new level.

    You guys talk about your tax dollars--I understand where you are coming--that's why Oklahoma City has far outdistanced Tulsa in the last 15 years--Oklahoma City has invested and become more aggressive.

    We need to look at alternative methods and ways to attract the facilities that will complement our city and keep us in competition with cities like Nashville, Indianapolis, Austin, Denver, Kansas City, Albuquerque and Phoenix.

  5. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by Laramie View Post
    This city didn't get to where it is today by not investing in itself. The competition out there among cities is being brought to a new level.

    You guys talk about your tax dollars--I understand where you are coming--that's why Oklahoma City has far outdistanced Tulsa in the last 15 years--Oklahoma City has invested and become more aggressive.

    We need to look at alternative methods and ways to attract the facilities that will complement our city and keep us in competition with cities like Nashville, Indianapolis, Austin, Denver, Kansas City, Albuquerque and Phoenix.
    And I supported many of those things. Downtown needed a big boost - it was dying. But today? Maybe I should just add as an addendum to my earlier post:
    Enough Is Enough.

  6. #81
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    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    And I supported many of those things. Downtown needed a big boost - it was dying. But today? Maybe I should just add as an addendum to my earlier post:
    Enough Is Enough.
    This thinking is like the patient who takes medicine until they feel better and then stops. They aren't cured yet, but because they THINK they are better they stop doing what was making them better....until they die.

  7. #82

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    This thinking is like the patient who takes medicine until they feel better and then stops. They aren't cured yet, but because they THINK they are better they stop doing what was making them better....until they die.
    Perfect analogy. I couldn't agree more.

  8. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    Because I don't want my tax dollars going to the local government to hand over to private hotel developers. Times are going to get tougher for this country and we'll need to prioritize; we don't need government funding private enterprise to compete with hotels already here and operating without government subsidies. It's amazing how many "conservatives" want the government to act as the stimulus on so many things downtown. We can't afford it.

    edit: And I sure can't support the arrogant attitude of government knows best and the backroom deal ways of non-transparency 'for our own good', as proposed by Lucca above. It's that kind of thinking that make people suspicious of everything that comes from City Hall. Sometimes I think this town is as "Good Old Boy" as its ever been - just with different names and faces. But when it's written as boldly as Lucca wrote it - I fear that some will always see local government as their own private sandbox, just using the idiot citizens to pay for it all. In my opinion, it's a shame to see praise for that post and that way of thinking.

    We'll see that kind of attitude backfire. While other cities are cutting back on subsidies to business and refocusing on their primary mission, it looks like some want to milk this city dry while we lay off police officers and put them in a building fit for Timbuktu, let go of firefighters, cut back on city parks, let our roads deteriorate and generally forget that there is more to this city than frickin' downtown.
    Really? Really? I have to disagree with you, Mike. Didn't OKC just restore a number of positions to its police and fire departments.

    A city doesn't need to prioritize on a special improvements package tax when it comes to general operations. General operations needs a constant source of funding. MAPS 3 was created specifically for projects to keep the momentum going. Other cities are cutting back because A) They don't have the type of tax laws or tax models to accomplish what we can accomplish here, and/or B) They don't even have a properly functioning government.

    Hard times or not, you cannot focus on a single solitary area of operating a city that may or may not have issues. Do that and other components fall behind or fail althogether. Each component of a city has its own funding source.

    Our roads are funded by three ongoing GO Bond Issue-funded packages from 2000, 2005 and 2007 that total more that $1 billion. Our schools and parks are funded by GO Bond packages, the state and the federal government. Our police and fire projection is funded by a dedicated .75% sales tax. Dedicated. Meaning it doesn't expire like MAPS.

    And let's not forget that the coveted state of Texas is DAMN good at corporate welfare, yet many Oklahomans still salivate over Texas.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  9. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by ZYX2 View Post
    Larry, I can't imagine the Oklahoma City Arena being replaced within five years after completion of the renovations. That would be a HUGE waste of money. I don't see why it couldn't last at least twenty years, preferably longer. I don't understand why so many people push for things to constantly be torn down and replaced. As long as the building is upgraded and remodeled every five to ten years at least, I see no reason to tear it down.
    Quote Originally Posted by KilgoreTrout View Post
    Please show me where someone said an arena should only last 10 years or where the Mayor said it would last only 5 years after renovations. There is no way Stern or Cornett said those things. Might want to check you facts, LarryOKC. Arenas should last about 25 years or so. MAPs 4 might be a good time to build a world class arena with the goal of it being completed by around 2030.
    So this thread can stay on topic, have responded to the above here: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...802#post442802

  10. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    Because I don't want my tax dollars going to the local government to hand over to private hotel developers. Times are going to get tougher for this country and we'll need to prioritize; we don't need government funding private enterprise to compete with hotels already here and operating without government subsidies. It's amazing how many "conservatives" want the government to act as the stimulus on so many things downtown. We can't afford it.

    edit: And I sure can't support the arrogant attitude of government knows best and the backroom deal ways of non-transparency 'for our own good', as proposed by Lucca above. It's that kind of thinking that make people suspicious of everything that comes from City Hall. Sometimes I think this town is as "Good Old Boy" as its ever been - just with different names and faces. But when it's written as boldly as Lucca wrote it - I fear that some will always see local government as their own private sandbox, just using the idiot citizens to pay for it all. In my opinion, it's a shame to see praise for that post and that way of thinking.

    We'll see that kind of attitude backfire. While other cities are cutting back on subsidies to business and refocusing on their primary mission, it looks like some want to milk this city dry while we lay off police officers and put them in a building fit for Timbuktu, let go of firefighters, cut back on city parks, let our roads deteriorate and generally forget that there is more to this city than frickin' downtown.
    Oklahoma City is laying off police and firefighters?

  11. #86

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Thats not true, they are currently in the hiring process for both

  12. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    ^^^
    True but just restoring the positions they promised wouldn't be cut to begin with if MAPS 3 passed. They have yet to fulfill the promise that the self-admitted shortages in public safety staffing would be addressed if MAPS 3 passed. In other words, a net gain not another "break even philosophy" which is where we are at now. But it is a step in the right direction.

  13. #88

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    I know for a fact OKC PD is hurting for man power and is wanting to get big class in the next academy, finding quality applicants that can pass through the entire process is a big hang up for a bunch of people. But they are definately trying to add a lot of position here in the near future.

    And having gone through fire fighter school I know there is always an ample amount of guys trying out for those positions so the FD gets to pick and choose the best of the best in the area.

  14. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    This thinking is like the patient who takes medicine until they feel better and then stops. They aren't cured yet, but because they THINK they are better they stop doing what was making them better....until they die.
    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Perfect analogy. I couldn't agree more.
    I suppose it's a good analogy if you want a dependent patient addicted to the medicine. I thought the idea was to get a person up on his own two feet and show him how he can keep himself healthy. In this (silly) analogy, when does the 'patient' ever get well? Or, are we (using your analogy), making the patient diabetic where he can't survive without his medicine (government handouts)? A slippery slope that guarantees every company wanting to do something in OKC will come begging to the government to help finance their enterprise. And this in a 'conservative' city.

  15. #90

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Do you think Chicago has quit? They built MilleniumPark and they have museums, an aquarium, an arena and stadiums. Is anyone on this forum suffering because of the penny sales tax? Our city isn't where it should be relative to it's size IMO. Maybe if it gets there we can slow the public works a bit. Personally however, I like thinking that my penny is improving quality of life for everyone who lives here and I don't want that to stop.

  16. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Do you think Chicago has quit? They built MilleniumPark and they have museums, an aquarium, an arena and stadiums. Is anyone on this forum suffering because of the penny sales tax? Our city isn't where it should be relative to it's size IMO. Maybe if it gets there we can slow the public works a bit. Personally however, I like thinking that my penny is improving quality of life for everyone who lives here and I don't want that to stop.
    My point is about government subsidies to private business. The taxpayers of OKC have no business handing $20,000,000.00 to a private hotel developer. I think maybe your idea of 'public works' is simply different than mine.

  17. #92

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by sroberts24 View Post
    I know for a fact OKC PD is hurting for man power and is wanting to get big class in the next academy, finding quality applicants that can pass through the entire process is a big hang up for a bunch of people. But they are definately trying to add a lot of position here in the near future....
    I don't know what this has to do with convention center talk, but I'll continue with it, lol, and say, if other cities here were a little bigger, like, say, Mustang. If it annexed more of OKC into its borders, then there would be more people paying property taxes and sales taxes for Mustang, and then they could have more streets and residents to patrol and take care of. It's things like that that would help OKC. Everyone always talks about the cruddy streets surrounding Mustang. Well, those are the last streets on the OKC ballot as far as bond work goes because it's all about the inner core first. Annex OKC land into Mustang land, and then you can vote those streets in to be repaved.

  18. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Do you think Chicago has quit? They built MilleniumPark and they have museums, an aquarium, an arena and stadiums. Is anyone on this forum suffering because of the penny sales tax? Our city isn't where it should be relative to it's size IMO. Maybe if it gets there we can slow the public works a bit. Personally however, I like thinking that my penny is improving quality of life for everyone who lives here and I don't want that to stop.
    And what would make it suddenly stop? There were statements implying if MAPS 3 didn't pass, we would somehow revert back 10 years in time. That if MAPS 3 didn't pass, that all development that was/is still ongoing as a result of the original MAPS would suddenly stop. Not saying that MAPS 3 won't spur something along but it is absurd to argue that it will stop if it didn't pass (or proposed to begin with).

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    And I supported many of those things. Downtown needed a big boost - it was dying. But today? Maybe I should just add as an addendum to my earlier post:
    Enough Is Enough.
    Sound like he was in agreement with the Mayor sentiments in September of 2009:
    "The city is just so fundamentally different from the past MAPS initiatives.”
    "I don’t think we’re going to stray too far from what most people would consider the MAPS brand with capital projects and a tax over a specific length of time. But the city is a different place now, and I think the proposal will reflect the changes the city has made.”
    There was an article in the Oklahoman (sorry can't locate it now), where the Mayor expanded on the differences between the original MAPS and MAPS 3. That MAPS was about saving OKC and MAPS 3 is simply about "continuing the momentum". Big difference.

  19. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCisOK4me View Post
    I don't know what this has to do with convention center talk, but I'll continue with it, lol, and say, if other cities here were a little bigger, like, say, Mustang. If it annexed more of OKC into its borders, then there would be more people paying property taxes and sales taxes for Mustang, and then they could have more streets and residents to patrol and take care of. It's things like that that would help OKC. Everyone always talks about the cruddy streets surrounding Mustang. Well, those are the last streets on the OKC ballot as far as bond work goes because it's all about the inner core first. Annex OKC land into Mustang land, and then you can vote those streets in to be repaved.
    No need for that. OKC will redo the road and then hand it over to the other city.

  20. #95

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    My point is about government subsidies to private business. The taxpayers of OKC have no business handing $20,000,000.00 to a private hotel developer. I think maybe your idea of 'public works' is simply different than mine.
    Just imagine what we would/would not have if there were no incentitives:

    No Dell
    No Thunder
    No new Devon Tower
    Tinker could possibly have closed.

  21. #96

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    And no BassPro!!!

  22. #97

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCRT View Post
    And no BassPro!!!
    No Amtrack, No Remington Park, No National Cowboy Hall of Fame, No OKC Zoo

  23. #98

    Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    There was an article in the Oklahoman (sorry can't locate it now), where the Mayor expanded on the differences between the original MAPS and MAPS 3. That MAPS was about saving OKC and MAPS 3 is simply about "continuing the momentum". Big difference.
    Larry, there is a difference but not a "big" difference. If you're not continuing momentum you're going backwards.

  24. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    But that was my point. We ARE continuing momentum. Development is STILL going on from the first MAPS (almost 20 years later). Successful development leads to other development. Now if Devon Tower were to suddenly go dark that could definitely put things in neutral or reverse, but something sort of that, I just don't see it happening. Even with the economic factors that OKC largely avoided (relatively speaking), it killed a proposed project or two but we are starting to see the ones that were put in suspended animation, come back.

  25. Default Re: Convention Center Hotel

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    Larry, there is a difference but not a "big" difference. If you're not continuing momentum you're going backwards.
    I think Larry said it well before me, I just wanted to say that I don't think government handouts equate to "momentum." And that's what we're talking about here with this hotel. A $20,000,000.00 giveaway must not be construed as the only way we can continue the "momentum." Tax dollars to private business to help capitalize their private endeavors maybe had its place to jumpstart progress, but I fail to see how (to follow the analogy a few posts back) "continuing the medicine" does anything but addict the patient. Local government was never meant to be a piggy bank for hoteliers. The local stimulus that the people of this city provided with MAPS is enough. If business can't figure out how to make it from here without more handouts, then something is wrong with the whole idea of free markets. It either works - or it doesn't. It's funny how so many "conservatives" have accepted that the free market simply won't work in downtown Oklahoma City and that any "momentum" connected with anything private still requires giveaways. I appreciate the other argument, I just fundamentally disagree.

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