Convention Center

[BoulderSooner]

Let me expand on the tunnel. When urban says the city is at bnsf’s mercy he mean 100% the city can’t hire the contractors to go under the tracks or do the work. They transfer the money to BNSF and they manage/do the work. So there is no way to know when that will occur. It is very very much at their leasire.

[Pete]

Let me expand on the tunnel. When urban says the city is at bnsf’s mercy he mean 100% the city can’t hire the contractors to go under the tracks or do the work. They transfer the money to BNSF and they manage/do the work. So there is no way to know when that will occur. It is very very much at their leasire.

Understood but that is part of this project and that was known from the beginning.

The same was true for the OKC Boulevard and several other projects. Not like the City didn't know about it from the start.

[Urban Pioneer]

^

So what is the timeline now?

Current goal is to have the streetcar system completely operational by November of 2018. Parts of it will come online before then and there will be a lengthy testing period as well. We keep making improvements to the design and have been modifying the schedule accordingly. Generally speaking, the contractor is encouraged through the use of penalties to stay on our schedule. Recent schedule creep is pretty much due to changes that our committee recommends be made as we identify issues and opportunities to improve the system. Because we are under budget, we have a a fair bit of flexibility as well to authorize improvements to the design as we move down each street.

[checkthat]

Current goal is to have the streetcar system completely operational by November of 2018. Parts of it will come online before then and there will be a lengthy testing period as well. We keep making improvements to the design and have been modifying the schedule accordingly. Generally speaking, the contractor is encouraged through the use of penalties to stay on our schedule. Recent schedule creep is pretty much due to changes that our committee recommends be made as we identify issues and opportunities to improve the system. Because we are under budget, we have a a fair bit of flexibility as well to authorize improvements to the design as we move down each street.

Pete's frustration:

do any of you have the slightest clue about the schedule for finishing Santa Fe Station?

Yes we do.

So what is the timeline now?

Current goal is to have the streetcar system completely operational by November of 2018.

[Rover]

So now that this site is associate with KFOR it would be reasonable to take this discussion from accusations and innuendo to actual investigative reporting. We should be able to do a wiki investigation with our members supplying leads for kfor news to follow up on and expose, prove or disprove. That would be accountability would it not? Isolate the corrupt and inept and get them fired and prosecuted where deemed right to do so.

[Pete]

In no way am I suggesting corruption, just lack of accountability that leads to making the same mistakes over and over again.

A light needs to be shined and changes need to be made.

[Urban Pioneer]

Pete's frustration:

Well it shouldn't be... Again, we are waiting Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad as explained earlier. They have not given us an approval to proceed. That has nothing to do with a lack of accountability or ineptitude with the City and/or our committee.

[Rover]

In no way am I suggesting corruption, just lack of accountability that leads to making the same mistakes over and over again.

A light needs to be shined and changes need to be made.

So, are you going to use your influence at KFOR to turn the spotlight on those you are so sure are messing up? As this site is now a part of the media and not just a bulletin board, there is a responsibility to dig and expose. With KFOR there should be muscle. If we are serious about changing and not just complaining, let’s get to it.

[Pete]

So, are you going to use your influence at KFOR to turn the spotlight on those you are so sure are messing up? As this site is now a part of the media and not just a bulletin board, there is a responsibility to dig and expose. With KFOR there should be muscle. If we are serious about changing and not just complaining, let’s get to it.

Let's? Got a mouse in your pocket??

[TheTravellers]

So, are you going to use your influence at KFOR to turn the spotlight on those you are so sure are messing up? As this site is now a part of the media and not just a bulletin board, there is a responsibility to dig and expose. With KFOR there should be muscle. If we are serious about changing and not just complaining, let’s get to it.

Agreed, that would be great! I have asked (of multiple things in multiple places, not just OKCTalk) "OK, so how do we fix it?" or "What can we, the average citizen) do about this?" or other variations of the same, and pretty much gotten crickets or "nothing, nobody's accountable to anybody anymore, except shareholders and Wall Street, so you don't matter". It would be fantastic if we, the people, actually meant something again...

[baralheia]

Well it shouldn't be... Again, we are waiting Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad as explained earlier. They have not given us an approval to proceed. That has nothing to do with a lack of accountability or ineptitude with the City and/or our committee.

Let's restate this in a way that more directly answers Pete's question. So if I've understood correctly: There is now no definite timeline for completion of this phase of the Santa Fe Station improvements, due to issues with BNSF preventing work on the pedestrian tunnel through the viaduct from proceeding. Would that be an accurate statement?

[Lafferty Daniel]

I'm made this point several times and will do again:

The City never reports against original timelines, budgets and scope. They merely keep changing the reports to show the latest projections, which are continually shifting. For example, the river projects are now labeled as complete but nowhere on current reports does it show there were to be a whole list of things -- like a grandstand and windscreen -- that just got cut. That is also not reflected in the budget.

I've never seen this done in business before. Imagine being a project manager and reporting monthly to your boss and never addressing the original promises made when the project was approved.

The only way to figure this out is to keep the original documents then do your own comparison and the contrast is startling. And as near as I can determine, this happens on all large City projects, not just MAPS 3.

The net effect is that everything always seems to be on schedule and on budget because they merely change the numbers and dates and the amount of work being done to match what actually is happening, rather than reporting against what was originally promised. Not only is it a terrible business practice, it also means there is no way to recognize and correct chronic problems like consistently under budgeting and being hugely unrealistic on timing. Not coincidentally, almost every major City project is way over budget (we just cut way back on the amount of work to be delivered) and time. Then for each subsequent project, we make the same mistakes over and over and find something new to blame like utilities or weather or things we should be able to figure out and make contingencies for in advance.

This goes largely unnoticed because it's very easy to get changes approved by just cutting items and revising timelines. The City Manager writes up a memo, City Council approves (without the benefit of seeing what was originally agreed to in the first place, often years if not decades prior). And the local media just publish what the City tells them without verifying or asking educated questions.


I'll pull together an update based on original promises and you'll see what I mean.

This would be a great piece for KFOR to do. Maybe that can put some pressure on those in charge.

Edit: I see Rover already mentioned this.

[Scott5114]

Missouri DOT posts a small blue sign at the beginning of each of their work zones that states the work being done and the estimated time to completion. Something like "Road Resurfacing—Fall 2017". Even something small like that would help hold the city accountable.

[Swake]

Missouri DOT posts a small blue sign at the beginning of each of their work zones that states the work being done and the estimated time to completion. Something like "Road Resurfacing—Fall 2017". Even something small like that would help hold the city accountable.

This is what Tulsa does.

[Pete]

http://newsok.com/maps-3-convention-...rticle/5569357

"Projects no longer included in the anticipated base project bids to be solicited by contractors include a SW 4 street plaza and a skywalk between the convention center and an adjoining Omni Hotel, a 540-space surface parking lot, ballroom light riggings, exterior vertical shade fins and a central utility plant."

This is before the project has even been bid, which indicates they think they are going to have a hard time fitting within the original budget, which already includes funds appropriated from the overall MAPS 3 contingency.


"David Todd, MAPS 3 program manager, said some of the items like the surface parking likely will be built with other funding if not included in the base project."

Other funding meaning more tax dollars spent on this project and a total cost that keeps growing and growing.

[stile99]

Well, the people who hate the idea of a skywalk for no reason are going to be happy, but that doesn't remove the very valid reasons for having one.

But hey, it'll be just like the jail, right? No money to do it right the first time, but plenty of money to redo it, then redo it, then redo it...

[Pete]

Money will be "found" to do all of these things, I'm quite sure of it.

[kevin lee]

I read it as nothing was chopped. They've deleted from this bid so they can be offered as smaller bids later.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
That is correct. This move allows for flexibility. Add alternates might still be a part of the project within the existing budget if bids come in below budget (as they often do in projects of this type, believe it or not). If bids come in low, they are included as if they were never carved out. If not, they can be funded in another phase, paid for with other funding sources, or eliminated entirely. This has happened with nearly every large project since the beginning of the first MAPS, and is neither surprising or underhanded in any way.

[Pete]

Have any of the other MAPS projects used 'other funds' to cover add alternates?

[Urbanized]

Have any of the other MAPS projects used 'other funds' to cover add alternates?

Of course they have. Here’s but one example: https://www.okc.gov/home/showdocument?id=6011

[Pete]

Of course they have. Here’s but one example: https://www.okc.gov/home/showdocument?id=6011

MAPS funds were used for that:

Source of Funds MAPS 3 Sales Tax-MAPS 3 River-OK River Whitewater FacilityConstruction in Progress

[Urbanized]

MAPS funds were used for that:

Oh, you meant monies outside of MAPS. OK, those include:

• Private donations solicited by Civic Center Foundation to complete trimmed Civic Center projects. Also included naming rights to main theater and little theater.
• Ballpark had around a million in add alternates completed by team ownership. The team facility rental was deferred until the team recaptured the million; essentially an interest-free loan to City
• Ronald J. Norick Library entrance plaza improvements that were trimmed from MAPS budget but funded through private donation
• There was a planned plaza between canal and ballpark third base entrance that was trimmed and now years later being redesigned with funding efforts underway by Downtown OKC Partnership with cooperation from City
• There were a number of items left out of original build of arena to stay within budget that were eventually added as tenant build and guest amenities as a part of separate arena tax

I can think of those right off the bat but I know there are other examples.

[Pete]

I truly hope that the convention center add alternates are underwritten through private donations but I highly doubt that will be the case.

BTW, we are now approaching $500 million total tax dollars for a project originally pitched and approved at $252 million... And they haven't even started construction.

[Urbanized]

That $500 million number is of course based on math that suits your argument and is just as debatable and squishy as the math you suggest the City uses for its own purposes. Including the hotel in your total, for instance, is of course a defensible position but it’s also an incomplete telling and completely debatable.

For the record the anticipated base bid of the convention center is $193 million.