Brickopolis

[Spartan]

Everyone can blast the city all they want, but the city cannot FORCE investment when the economics just aren't there. Over time bricktown property will become more valuable and these lots will go away. But now, the upside doesn't justify huge investment...YET.

DD is perceived by investors to be worth the investment and they are making it so. Their success will ultimately force btown to become more valuable and bigger investments will be made. It is a process.

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce. Absolutely nothing. Bricktown has the canal, more streetscapes, the ballpark, and on and on. How much taxpayer resources have been utilized to attract Bricktown development compared to the Deep Deuce housing projects? It is frustrating. Right now, Bricktown has absolutely not been worth it, in comparison. That's the bottom line, and I'm someone who's inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm pro-Bricktown, but this is really frustrating.

Seems to me it has more to do with the gap economics. People like Chris Johnson and Jim Brewer have everything to do with that. Developers can get rich quick doing parking, or do it the right way, involving hard work, and do a real development. Which should they do?

[wschnitt]

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce. Absolutely nothing. Bricktown has the canal, more streetscapes, the ballpark, and on and on. How much taxpayer resources have been utilized to attract Bricktown development compared to the Deep Deuce housing projects? It is frustrating. Right now, Bricktown has absolutely not been worth it, in comparison. That's the bottom line, and I'm someone who's inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm pro-Bricktown, but this is really frustrating.

Seems to me it has more to do with the gap economics. People like Chris Johnson and Jim Brewer have everything to do with that. Developers can get rich quick doing parking, or do it the right way, involving hard work, and do a real development. Which should they do?

I am very interested this what you are saying here. Explain more what you mean by gap economics?

[Spartan]

Well, I'm not a developer, and Pete and Rover could probably explain it a lot better than I since I'm more constrained to urban theory, but essentially it boils down to how expensive an opportunity is. Risk/reward. Bricktown is an expensive opportunity because you're not going to get in on a good real estate deal to boot. This is why quite often the economics are heavily in favor of "new and upcoming" districts as opposed to well-established (in some cases overrated) ones like Bricktown.

Many people believe that higher land values correlate to denser development. That would imply that Bricktown should be seeing all of Deep Deuce's development, whereas realistically we are seeing the exact reverse phenomena.

[Pete]

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce

At least $12 million in TIF funding has already been spent on several projects in DD. Level and Bradshaw's project will get millions more.

Virtually every bit of development in Deep Deuce has involved OCURA obtaining properties then selling to developers for reduced prices.

And of course, very little of this would have happened without Bricktown being in place and thriving.


And I would strongly disagree that the results in Bricktown have not been worth the investment. ALL of the development downtown and the surrounding areas started with Bricktown. It was the first time OKC had a "there" to it and it's not a surprise that the surrounding areas have all picked up since. It also proved it was possible to have a successful urban district in town which made it much easier for other areas to be developed.


I understand some of the frustration about Bricktown but it's incredible how little credit the area gets. It is STILL the one place I take people new to OKC and every single one of them have been impressed. There is an incredible amount there for crying out loud.

In case no one has been paying attention, not only did the ACM@UCO buy their entire building to expand their wildly successful program, they are also helping start a new music store. I could list scores more RECENT happenings (Purple Martini, Norms, etc., etc.) and the dozens and dozens of restaurants, bars, clubs, live music venues and everything else from a big movie theater to a bowling lounge to the ballpark... But it would take far too long.

[Spartan]

Pete, we're finding some disagreements here. Deep Deuce wouldn't happen without Bricktown? I think rather, Bricktown won't survive without DD at this rate, and furthermore, how do we not know that DD wouldn't be bigger/better today? That neighborhood was decimated by ODOT, not solely OCURA like everywhere else. Bricktown was NOTHING in 1980. It was industrial, even.

On balance, if you like at where each neighborhood began, Deep Deuce did make more sense. So I think this Bricktown-centric view of downtown development is not only myopic but it's no longer the year 2004. Downtown has matured, issues have been solved, other issues popped up, and so on. The Bricktown-centric downtown view that many still have is not an accurate reflection of downtown today and not even CLOSE to it. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

As for the more than $12 million in TIFs, you don't think that is a standing offer for any developer willing to invest in a HUGE development like all of those TIFs are for? If anyone stepped up to do something like LEVEL in Bricktown, surely they could work a deal out. Besides, let's not pretend there haven't been subsidies for some Bricktown projects, as well. ALSO furthermore, keep in mind that those TIFs in DD paid for streetscape improvements for the most part. Bricktown already got all of that.

As for ACM@UCO, I think it's questionable whether they chose the right neighborhood at this point. I believe that there is a potential for a lot more REAL culture not to mention day-time vitality in other parts of the downtown area.

[jbrown84]

Incorrect!

The parking lot is not a mistake. You will see when its complete.

Care to explain that beyond simple cheerleading?

[Steve]

A strong defense of Chris Johnson and this development was just posted: http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ioned-motives/

[Just the facts]

So you think these guys are just having a pissing match while the rest of the people in the City have to sit around and watch? They could learn a lesson from the deveopers a few blocks to their north who seem to be working together to make money.

[jbrown84]

A strong defense of Chris Johnson and this development was just posted: http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ioned-motives/

Ehh. Not that strong. It's fine and dandy that he's a successful businessman, but he has no experience in an urban setting and little vision for how he can develop the property successfully without essentially giving us yet another canal-adjacent parking lot.

I do like the look of the buildings, but there should be more of them and no parking at street level. I actually would have been satisfied if he cut the parking area in half and made the north half a second level of retail. At least then you would have no parking visible from the canal on that side.

[Spartan]

A strong defense of Chris Johnson and this development was just posted: http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ioned-motives/

That's a strong defense? It's not even coherent, and it avoids the issues. Parking is not needed. Who cares if he's employed people before? And the point isn't to put something, anything there. "At least he's doing something there" more like "at least he's willing to prevent a better development from going on Bricktown's best open plot."

Steve, you've really lowered the bar if you think that's a strong defense. It is slightly better than a Thunder post, but other than that, I think you're trying a little too hard to be balanced here.

[rcjunkie]

While this may not be the best or most desired use for this property, I think it's better than having vacant land set idle for the next 20 years.

[betts]

Deep Deuce wouldn't happen without Bricktown? I think rather, Bricktown won't survive without DD at this rate, and furthermore, how do we not know that DD wouldn't be bigger/better today? That neighborhood was decimated by ODOT, not solely OCURA like everywhere else. Bricktown was NOTHING in 1980. It was industrial, even.

On balance, if you like at where each neighborhood began, Deep Deuce did make more sense. So I think this Bricktown-centric view of downtown development is not only myopic but it's no longer the year 2004. Downtown has matured, issues have been solved, other issues popped up, and so on. The Bricktown-centric downtown view that many still have is not an accurate reflection of downtown today and not even CLOSE to it. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

As for ACM@UCO, I think it's questionable whether they chose the right neighborhood at this point. I believe that there is a potential for a lot more REAL culture not to mention day-time vitality in other parts of the downtown area.

I think it's very difficult to compare Deep Deuce and Bricktown. Deep Deuce, at this point in time, is becoming a neighborhood. Bricktown will never be a neighborhood. But, they both have their place. I might not live in Deep Deuce, were it not for Bricktown, but I think Bricktown could easily survive without Deep Deuce. It's rather the restaurants in Deep Deuce which would have trouble surviving without Deep Deuce residents.

Bricktown, on a weekend, is a vibrant place. Due to a broken toe, we drove rather than walked to Harkins to go to a movie last night. We had great difficulty finding a parking spot close enough for the broken toe. There were people everywhere. The movie theatre and all the restaurants we passed were full. When Bricktown is hopping, it's a fun place to be and worthy of our tax dollars and support. If we're lucky, some day Deep Deuce will be like many other city neighborhoods, with a few restaurants, some boutique shopping, a grocery store and a few other services. That will be great. But, the proximity to Bricktown and the CBD adds appeal that a city neighborhood cannot provide, IMO.

It's wonderful we are starting to have many different near downtown options for restaurants and housing. They are all unique and have value. Now all we need is a bit more retail.

[Steve]

That's a strong defense? It's not even coherent, and it avoids the issues. Parking is not needed. Who cares if he's employed people before? And the point isn't to put something, anything there. "At least he's doing something there" more like "at least he's willing to prevent a better development from going on Bricktown's best open plot."

Steve, you've really lowered the bar if you think that's a strong defense. It is slightly better than a Thunder post, but other than that, I think you're trying a little too hard to be balanced here.

Let's define strong: I'm not saying I think it's a valid, strong argument in favor of Johnson. I am saying it's someone who is not holding back in defending Johnson. Maybe a better description would have been "a long, vocal defense"? The idea is this is someone who is absolutely on Johnson's side of this argument. To be clear, I've not heard anyone on either side come right out and say Johnson's project is the highest and best use of this land.

[Rover]

He's just a kid.....

Kids don't have to be rude or stupid. It is only and excuse other rude people use to let rude kids grow up to be rude adults.

[Rover]

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce. Absolutely nothing. Bricktown has the canal, more streetscapes, the ballpark, and on and on. How much taxpayer resources have been utilized to attract Bricktown development compared to the Deep Deuce housing projects? It is frustrating. Right now, Bricktown has absolutely not been worth it, in comparison. That's the bottom line, and I'm someone who's inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm pro-Bricktown, but this is really frustrating.

Seems to me it has more to do with the gap economics. People like Chris Johnson and Jim Brewer have everything to do with that. Developers can get rich quick doing parking, or do it the right way, involving hard work, and do a real development. Which should they do?

We are saying the same thing. The investment I am referring to was in Btown. The private investors are the ones making DD viable (though DD was cleared and invested in by the city originally, just not focused on like Btown.

I don't think surface parking lot operations make investors rich. Usually they are a way to create positive cash flow and buy time for the property to become valuable. Of course that assumes that their neighbors are investing in making that happen so they get a free ride...or in this case, counting on the public to invest and make their property worth more. Essentially, these surface lot creators are counting on someone else...you and me...to do the risky work they don't have the stomach, means, and/or desire to do. IMHO, this is when the city needs to protect its citizens' investment and put teeth into restrictions, standards, etc., and penalize through taxation. Let them do surface and then take 50% of their income. Make it not pay. Give them the right breaks for development and expedite the administration of such. etc., etc., etc.

[Rover]

Pete, we're finding some disagreements here. Deep Deuce wouldn't happen without Bricktown? I think rather, Bricktown won't survive without DD at this rate, and furthermore, how do we not know that DD wouldn't be bigger/better today? That neighborhood was decimated by ODOT, not solely OCURA like everywhere else. Bricktown was NOTHING in 1980. It was industrial, even.

On balance, if you like at where each neighborhood began, Deep Deuce did make more sense. So I think this Bricktown-centric view of downtown development is not only myopic but it's no longer the year 2004. Downtown has matured, issues have been solved, other issues popped up, and so on. The Bricktown-centric downtown view that many still have is not an accurate reflection of downtown today and not even CLOSE to it. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

As for the more than $12 million in TIFs, you don't think that is a standing offer for any developer willing to invest in a HUGE development like all of those TIFs are for? If anyone stepped up to do something like LEVEL in Bricktown, surely they could work a deal out. Besides, let's not pretend there haven't been subsidies for some Bricktown projects, as well. ALSO furthermore, keep in mind that those TIFs in DD paid for streetscape improvements for the most part. Bricktown already got all of that.

As for ACM@UCO, I think it's questionable whether they chose the right neighborhood at this point. I believe that there is a potential for a lot more REAL culture not to mention day-time vitality in other parts of the downtown area.

Why this contest between DD and BT. Both feed each other. All of downtown has to be synergystic. This my agenda vs. your agenda thing is one of the reason OKC has traditionally been unable to get things done. Instead of looking at the "core", we are now arguing about a few blocks at a time. DD and BT serve two totally different purposes. Both rely on each other at this time.

DD was not organically improving itself originally (unless you feel having MORE hookers was better than having LESS hookers). Government had to get involved, remove persistent blight and create a developable infrastructure. It would not have developed on its own. Neither would have BT. Overall, the complement each other and add to the entire core of the city...exactly wheat our city fathers intended.

As for the UCO ACM, I think it is best suited in BT with the performance venues and sense of entertainment. It doesn't necessarily fit another place better. The only knock on its location is the liquor issue, which should get worked out.

[Spartan]

I don't believe there to be a contest between DD and BT? Just using them for comparative purposes, which I believe to be highly in order.

[jbrown84]

It is slightly better than a Thunder post,

Let's define strong: I'm not saying I think it's a valid, strong argument in favor of Johnson. I am saying it's someone who is not holding back in defending Johnson. Maybe a better description would have been "a long, vocal defense"? The idea is this is someone who is absolutely on Johnson's side of this argument. To be clear, I've not heard anyone on either side come right out and say Johnson's project is the highest and best use of this land.

Sounds more like one of his buddies or long time t-shirt customers hearing he was being bashed on your blog and coming in to defend him, rather than someone who really follows these things or has Bricktown's best interest in mind.

[Spartan]

How many times have people who don't really follow downtown come to the rescue of some of these bastage developers? Reminds me of that SR debacle, and those suckers won. [*pulls hair out]

[Architect2010]

Kids don't have to be rude or stupid. It is only and excuse other rude people use to let rude kids grow up to be rude adults.

You're generalizing. Don't worry, the sun will come up again. I've never been told in person that I'm rude, but if you're that bruised over a single internet-forum comment, then I digress.

Haha.

[okcboy]

Without the work of people like the Johnsons and Brewers to risk their livelyhoods there would be no Bricktown or MAPS 1 argueably. The Chesapeakes and Scaramucci's of the world have alot more available resources than these guys to do the things that are being talked about easily. What are they doing? Where are the deep pockets at?

[Steve]

OKC Boy, are you really comparing Johnson's track record to that of the Brewers? Yeah, both did surface parking in Bricktown, but beyond that, I'm at a loss to see how Johnson's record in Bricktown matches up. I'm not aware of him playing any role in MAPS 1 or Bricktown prior to the late 1999s. He built a surface parking lot along the canal and collected $5 per car to park there until selling it to Jim. Not aware of anything else done by Johnson in Bricktown to date. Brewer, on the other hand, unquestionably worked for and helped fund the first MAPS campaign and was tireless in his early promotion of the district. He helped get it started with O'Brien's and the festivals, including Fourth of July in Bricktown. As for Scaramucci, I'm curious to hear what Johnson has done to date that compares to Nonna's and The Painted Door. As for Chesapeake, they're not a player in Bricktown, though one can see the company's handiwork nearby along the Oklahoma River with the Chesapeake Boathouse and Finish Line Tower... Not bashing Johnson here, just questioning your comparison.

[okcboy]

No just wondering when the deep pocket developers will start going to Bricktown. I was just comparing these two kind of developers as more hard working and haveing to worry more about the economics and revenue streams than the ones that can afford to do a multi million dollar development and make a return over a long period of time rather than immediately as a investment to support the family business or livelyhood. There is no comparison on track record in my mind.

[Spartan]

Without the work of people like the Johnsons and Brewers to risk their livelyhoods there would be no Bricktown or MAPS 1 argueably. The Chesapeakes and Scaramucci's of the world have alot more available resources than these guys to do the things that are being talked about easily. What are they doing? Where are the deep pockets at?

The Brewer brothers haven't added any more surface parking lots since taking over for their old dad. Jim was a figure that Bricktown revolved around, no doubt about that. I don't mean to say he was the Godfather of Bricktown.......but close. By comparison Chris Johnson is some pissant hick with a sports clothing business that hasn't cashed in on Bricktown lately and wants a novelty project. Sometimes these people's presence and their utter lack of understanding/knowledge/awareness of downtown and Bricktown do infinitely more harm than good. There is no doubt in my mind that anything Chris Johnson does should stay out there on Meridian Avenue and not come ANY closer to downtown.

And to see someone compare Scaramucci to Johnson is laughable.

[okcboy]

I was just trying to compare a thought process between a developer with limited resources and one blessed with many. To do a urban development we would all wish for on this property would take deep pockets. I do think Scaramucci needs to step it up a little if she wants to set an example as well as continue to be very critical
on the committees she sits on. Is she a developer or a politician? Besides the restaurant, what are her accomplishments?