Skirvin Expansion / Convention Center Hotel (dead)

[Patrick]

MAPS is a program designed to build new state of the art facilities and entice new development. All of the discussions about tearing down or using existing facilities are
good, but not in the context of what the MAPS program is all about. I'm fairly certain The Skirvin will do very well on its own and still be the landmark hotel that it is now.
Which might be better for them in the long term.

Ummmm...your statement contradicts itself. This proposal is all about MAPS enticing new development, namely, a 400+ room tower attached to the Skirvin.

And your comment about not using existing facilities? Ummmm.....didn't MAPS 1 reuse the existing facilities at the State Fair Grounds, and the existing facilities at the Cox Center and the existing facilities at the Civic Center? Wasn't MAPS for Kids all about renovating existing facilities? I don't see the point.

[Pete]

I agree there are still lots of questions/concerns about this proposal but, of course, there would be for any location.

I'll merely say I really like the idea of trying to increase density, utilize the hotels and restaurants we already have, and linking the CBD directly to Bricktown.

After all, it's been 12 years since the Bricktown canal was opened and there is still tons of vacancy and next to nothing above the businesses along ground level. Something big needs to come along and make it worthwhile for apartments, lofts and offices in those scores of buildings. This could very well do it, as in the very near future Deep Deuce is going to be maxed out and this will be a natural extension of what will soon become our first fully realized urban neighborhood.

I'm simply tired of trying to ride too many horses with one behind. Let's concentrate on the areas closest to critical mass first before we forge yet another frontier on the edge of downtown.

[jbrown84]

Do you really think that the Skirvin is proposing to add a whole bunch of rooms they mostly won't use just so they can offer them to locals most of the time at discounted rates?? Of course not.

Who said anything about discounted rates?? I've been in the hotel industry for 3 years and I can tell you for sure that convention rates are going to be a lot lower than the rates offered to honeymooners and local couples looking for a romantic weekend. I wouldn't worry about that at all.

As far as your other concerns, we don't know enough yet about impact on historic Main Street properties to judge. And the amount of rooms added is certainly not final either.

They would have to acquire the building across from the Maywood lofts for this site.

No they wouldn't. The area north of the parking lots containing that building and the future Aloft is separate from this proposed convention center site.

[Spartan]

Jbrown, my point about "discounted rates" was a response to another poster..and it was intended to be incredulous, because I was pointing out flawed logic.

I agree there are still lots of questions/concerns about this proposal but, of course, there would be for any location.

I'll merely say I really like the idea of trying to increase density, utilize the hotels and restaurants we already have, and linking the CBD directly to Bricktown.

After all, it's been 12 years since the Bricktown canal was opened and there is still tons of vacancy and next to nothing above the businesses along ground level. Something big needs to come along and make it worthwhile for apartments, lofts and offices in those scores of buildings. This could very well do it, as in the very near future Deep Deuce is going to be maxed out and this will be a natural extension of what will soon become our first fully realized urban neighborhood.

I'm simply tired of trying to ride too many horses with one behind. Let's concentrate on the areas closest to critical mass first before we forge yet another frontier on the edge of downtown.

True, but Bricktown is Bricktown's fault... in my mind's eye, this north-of-the-Skirvin area is a new frontier. Without this proposal it will probably be the last area in the entire downtown region to be revitalized. The city's unwillingness to figure out a solution for EKG is a huge impediment to fixing up this part of downtown.

[Patrick]

This is totally false. I don't mean to go negative, but you did attempt to make a definitive statement, so I'll just say you clearly have no idea what kind of deals are currently being talked about. For the convention center committee to be affected by an announcement of any prospective deal would be ridiculous.

No, it's actually the God honest truth. Just ask anyone on the MAPS 3 oversight committee. I speak to several of them regularly. In fact, just got off the phone with one of them this afternoon, who said you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Marcus Hotels is the first and only hotel operator to come to them with any proposal like this. They haven't had anyone calling them, busting down the door for an opportunity to be involved in this. At least not yet. But it's still early. I'm not saying we should close off discussion with other companies, but we should at least give this proposal strong consideration considering we know the track record of the company, as evidenced by their impact on the CBD.

And mark my word....if they go with the Ford site, you're not going to see as urban of a hotel.....you're going to see more suburban sprawl. And without this proposal, my guess is they'll probably choose the Ford site over the north Bricktown site.

[Pete]

Yes, I get it that Marcus has been a good partner for OKC. OKC has been a good partner for Marcus as well, and that relationship will continue at the Skirvin. I am just calling out their motives for those who think, "Oh my god, I love you Marcus, you guys are trying to do us a solid!" which seems to be the general reaction of this thread.

By far and away, the best business relationships are those where both sides of an agreement profit. Add in the benefit to area businesses and the general community, and you have one of the great success stories ever hatched in OKC.

This is not a small thing and followed many, many failed attempts.

Doesn't mean Marcus is the only one that could be successful at this sort of venture downtown but I would say they have the highest probability for lots of reasons already mentioned. Therefore, when they present a real proposal they deserve our respect.

If someone has a better idea with real backing, let's see it. Until then, you can't blame people for being excited about this.

[Patrick]

Its great that it is being paid back, but the city money still made it happen. My gut says there are some fish on the hook for a new convention center hotel. Hopefull we will do whats right for the city and not whats right for any possible agendas.

I don't care what deal you go with, or what company you work with, there isn't a company out there that's going to do this project without any guaranteed incentives. It's just too big of a risk.

[Patrick]

The city's unwillingness to figure out a solution for EKG is a huge impediment to fixing up this part of downtown.

What's your problem with EKG?

[Patrick]

Another site, the current Cox Site, would be even better.

No, no, no. The city isn't going to give up the arena in the Cox Center. I think you just need to accept that the Cox Center site is not an option, regardless of what some study may show.

Yes, I get it that Marcus has been a good partner for OKC. OKC has been a good partner for Marcus as well, and that relationship will continue at the Skirvin. I am just calling out their motives for those who think, "Oh my god, I love you Marcus, you guys are trying to do us a solid!" which seems to be the general reaction of this thread.

Again, Marcus Hotels is a for-profit hotel operator. I think we just need to accept that for what it is. They aren't the only fish in the sea, but they have proven to be successful in our community, and I think that deserves our respect in and by itself. That being said, it someone like John Q. Hammons also comes up with a proposal, I think we should consider it as well, for the same reasons.

[mcca7596]

No they wouldn't. The area north of the parking lots containing that building and the future Aloft is separate from this proposed convention center site.

Ok, but that would make it awkward staying south of the railway right of way, as it curves.

I was just going off this picture and others like it from the Skirvin's proposal to the city, available on Steve's article:

[Spartan]

No, it's actually the God honest truth. Just ask anyone on the MAPS 3 oversight committee. I speak to several of them regularly. In fact, just got off the phone with one of them this afternoon, who said you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Marcus Hotels is the first and only hotel operator to come to them with any proposal like this. They haven't had anyone calling them, busting down the door for an opportunity to be involved in this. At least not yet. But it's still early. I'm not saying we should close off discussion with other companies, but we should at least give this proposal strong consideration considering we know the track record of the company, as evidenced by their impact on the CBD.

That could be because it's totally inappropriate at this stage of the project for this to consider the best hotel deal. Right now it needs to focus on the best site for OKC. If they want to hear about some hotel groups interested in doing a deal in OKC, they should talk to some of the huge commercial brokerage firms downtown. That's one of the problems in this city is that nobody talks to each other these days, few people are on the same page. This is an example of that, and Jane Jenkins saying she had no idea what was going on with the streetcar was another prime example of this.

[Jesseda]

I might be missing it, but how many floors or how tall is this project going to be? and is it a for sure thing or just a pipe dream up

[Spartan]

No, no, no. The city isn't going to give up the arena in the Cox Center. I think you just need to accept that the Cox Center site is not an option, regardless of what some study may show.



Again, Marcus Hotels is a for-profit hotel operator. I think we just need to accept that for what it is. They aren't the only fish in the sea, but they have proven to be successful in our community, and I think that deserves our respect in and by itself. That being said, it someone like John Q. Hammons also comes up with a proposal, I think we should consider it as well, for the same reasons.

I didn't say I think the Cox Center site is a good site for the M3 convention center. I said IF the end goal is turning the FNC into a hotel as a part of this...

And if JQH is the only other hotelier interested (far from being true, in fact I don't even know or care if he is) then I think the better reaction would be to run for the hills..

[Patrick]

I might be missing it, but how many floors or how tall is this project going to be? and is it a for sure thing or just a pipe dream up

It's just a proposal by one company, Marcus Hotels and resorts. It would be approx. 22 floors. It's just a development concept. Nothing official, nothing done.

[Spartan]

What's your problem with EKG?

Wow, where to begin... it's too long of a story. It's just not compatible with an urban environment in about 5 very big ways. To make the long story short, there was a proposal at 4th and Broadway for a new Chamber bldg, initially they wanted to "fix" EKG and straighten it and dead-end it in front of the Y, the city refused to even listen to that, so the Chamber's proposal was changed to something more appropriate for fronting an artery like EKG. And then not surprisingly it was lambasted for being anti-urban. Well shocker of all shockers...

[Patrick]

And if JQH is the only other hotelier interested (far from being true, in fact I don't even know or care if he is) then I think the better reaction would be to run for the hills..

I think JQH demands a lot of respect in this city. He was the first to start the momentum of developing hotels in downtown again. Remember, he proposed a new downtown hotel back when we only had 1 hotel downtown: the Westin (now Sheraton). He took huge risk, investing first in the Renaissance, then in the Courtyard, and later in the Residence Inn. That got the ball rolling for the projects that have come since by other developers.

[Patrick]

Wow, where to begin... it's too long of a story. It's just not compatible with an urban environment in about 5 very big ways. To make the long story short, there was a proposal at 4th and Broadway for a new Chamber bldg, initially they wanted to "fix" EKG and straighten it and dead-end it in front of the Y, the city refused to even listen to that, so the Chamber's proposal was changed to something more appropriate for fronting an artery like EKG. And then not surprisingly it was lambasted for being anti-urban. Well shocker of all shockers...

I say just remove EKG completely then. I don't really see what purpose it serves.

[Spartan]

Well we are in solid agreement on that.

[Patrick]

Well we are in solid agreement on that.

Yay!

[okcboy]

All of the previous MAPS money spent on existing properties were for the same use. The
only site on this issue would be the cox center. If incentives are going to be needed, which they will, I think another new hotel would be better than adding on to an existing one. Having the Skirvin as a CC hotel would kinda cheapen their image in my mind.

[Spartan]

Patrick, I didn't mean to say "you have no clue" yada yada (the oldest card on OKC Talk for people with problems communicating I suppose) but I have had coffee chats with people who have mentioned some incredible potential deals. Keep in mind that MAPS 3 has completely changed the rules AND the game here in OKC, and outside developers have been watching and making inquiries.

How ironic would it be if Marcus beats them all by pitching their proposal directly to the committee long before it's time to hear hotel pitches...

[Patrick]

Patrick, I didn't mean to say "you have no clue" yada yada (the oldest card on OKC Talk for people with problems communicating I suppose) but I have had coffee chats with people who have mentioned some incredible potential deals. Keep in mind that MAPS 3 has completely changed the rules and the game here in OKC, and outside developers have been watching and making inquiries.

Okay, I confess, there has been a lot of coffee talk proposals from other companies. But nothing serious enough to come straight and center like this one.

How ironic would it be if Marcus beats them all by pitching their proposal directly to the committee long before it's time to hear hotel pitches...

How cool would it be if the other companies push Marcus to offer us a better deal, and they build a 40-50 story hotel north of the Skirvin?

[Spartan]

And to go back to my point about the motives... my big motive fear, why I think the obvious (that Marcus is a money-making corporation) is relevant here (and I think I failed to develop this point earlier), is that I suspect the real goal here is to keep outside big-name hoteliers out of OKC. I think among existing hotels there might be hesitation to fully embrace the idea of a Hyatt, or Four Seasons, or W, or Marriott, or some other big-name hotel becoming the new biggest fish in the pond.

I know for an absolutely fact that the point that OKC can't absorb more hotel rooms is false. That's utter fabrication. OKC is really suffering right now from a huge DEARTH of downtown rooms. That's insane for someone to say otherwise. I can't even form the words to express how dumbfounded I am to read that, and then for someone else to allude to some fictional planners or city officials with the same concerns as well. Where is this coming from?? City officials I've heard talk about the downtown room count situation are all in agreement that the room count is holding us back in a big way right now.

Okay, I confess, there has been a lot of coffee talk proposals from other companies. But nothing serious enough to come straight and center like this one.

How cool would it be if the other companies push Marcus to offer us a better deal, and they build a 40-50 story hotel north of the Skirvin?

1. Probably because it's not the time right now to come straight and center. It's not the time to address that kind of thing yet.

2. The size and height, other than room count, is irrelevant to me, although I will certainly be offering my urban design critiques. Of course I would like to see significant new development spurred from MAPS..

[Patrick]

All of the previous MAPS money spent on existing properties were for the same use. The
only site on this issue would be the cox center. If incentives are going to be needed, which they will, I think another new hotel would be better than adding on to an existing one. Having the Skirvin as a CC hotel would kinda cheapen their image in my mind.

So, Marcus builds the tower north of the Skirvin and brands it something else, and makes it independent?

[Patrick]

And to go back to my point about the motives... my big motive fear, why I think the obvious (that Marcus is a money-making corporation) is relevant here (and I think I failed to develop this point earlier), is that I suspect the real goal here is to keep outside big-name hoteliers out of OKC. I think among existing hotels there might be hesitation to fully embrace the idea of a Hyatt, or Four Seasons, or W, or Marriott, or some other big-name hotel becoming the new biggest fish in the pond.

Well, this is just a first draft. So, why not have Marcus build the tower north of the Skirvin, but require that it be built larger and that it be branded as a W, Hyatt, or whatever?
I think you could still include Marcus, without making the Skirvin become the actual convention hotel.