Uptown / 23rd District

[Spartan]

Wow. What an amazing deal. Good to be an urban pioneer I guess.

[sooner88]

Can't tell if you all are being sarcastic or not....

[riflesforwatie]

HAWK pedestrian signal being installed on 23rd between Walker and Hudson this morning, for OKC Community Church and Tower Theatre, I'm guessing. I always felt sorry for the crossing guards there on Sunday mornings, so this is probably long overdue.

[2Lanez]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but this seems unnecessary. The Walker intersection is RIGHT THERE. If pedestrians have an expectation to cross the street exactly where they park, we are always going to have auto/pedestrian issues. There is nothing wrong with having to walk half a block to an intersection.

[dankrutka]

I think there's some truth to the view that pedestrians cannot expect to cross the street anywhere, but I think this logic applies better to areas that rate high in walkability. According to Jeff Speck, walkability is not just being able to walk in an area, but a walk must be (1) useful, (2) safe, (3) comfortable, and (4) interesting. Because the south side of 23rd doesn't meet most of these criteria, I think people are more likely to cut across the street to their destination. In this case, I think a mid-block crossing can be appropriate and might even make the area safer by providing a cue to drivers to slow down.

[2Lanez]

But that's not the case on this block. They redid sidewalks and did some landscaping when the lot was added. It's probably not the highest grade of urbanism, but I think it's reasonable to expect a pedestrian to use it. Adding a pedestrian stop light 200 feet from a crosswalked intersection just plays into the mentality that I shouldn't have to walk to the corner to cross the street.

[ABCOKC]

This seems to be a minority opinion on this board, but personally if the place I need to get to is right across the street and there aren't any cars coming, I'm not going to walk 200 ft to the crosswalk, wait for the light, cross the street, and walk 200 ft back to my destination.

I'm going to walk 50 ft to my destination.

[Teo9969]

Part of the problem is that our blocks are really really long. Walker to Hudson on 23rd is particularly ridiculous @ 600 feet!!! That's somewhere between 2 and 4 blocks in many urban environments. Walking 150 feet to the corner, only to walk literally 150 feet back the direction you get there one you cross is a bit of a nuisance. It's not natural for a pedestrian to do so.

...Of course, the parking setup on 23rd also seems a bit ridiculous to me, and it really incentivizes that sort of bad behavior by pedestrians that are coming from their cars (most of the pedestrians on 23rd). In a normal pedestrian situation, you're not coming from mid-block, so there's no reason to cross there.

[dankrutka]

But that's not the case on this block. They redid sidewalks and did some landscaping when the lot was added. It's probably not the highest grade of urbanism, but I think it's reasonable to expect a pedestrian to use it.

Just returning to my point above that walkability is not about having nice sidewalks, but it includes other factors that make it psychologically comfortable to make an extended walk. I'm not saying this to refute your argument that people should use the crosswalk at the light (you bring up a fair point), just to add a perspective as to why someone might just decide to dart across the street instead of staying on the sidewalk.

[2Lanez]

This seems to be a minority opinion on this board, but personally if the place I need to get to is right across the street and there aren't any cars coming, I'm not going to walk 200 ft to the crosswalk, wait for the light, cross the street, and walk 200 ft back to my destination.

I'm going to walk 50 ft to my destination.

Exactly. And this is fine if you want a suburban environment where everything has a parking lot out front. In the core, we won't be able to put crosswalks in every half-block. Pedestrians need to be encouraged to use the existing infrastructure.

[2Lanez]

Just returning to my point above that walkability is not about having nice sidewalks, but it includes other factors that make it psychologically comfortable to make an extended walk. I'm not saying this to refute your argument that people should use the crosswalk at the light (you bring up a fair point), just to add a perspective as to why someone might just decide to dart across the street instead of staying on the sidewalk.

Yeah, and I don't disagree with you on that. The east side of 23rd and Walker is still rough. But my opinion is that this is an OKC problem, not just a 23rd Street problem. Automobile Alley has similar issues.

[ABCOKC]

Exactly. And this is fine if you want a suburban environment where everything has a parking lot out front. In the core, we won't be able to put crosswalks in every half-block. Pedestrians need to be encouraged to use the existing infrastructure.

Agree with you 100% on the bolded part. I think where we differ is I don't necessarily consider walking directly to your destination to be an exclusively suburban activity. Certainly the constant need to park adjacent one's destination is a suburban mindset and one I'd love to see change in OKC.

IMO though, once you've parked, it's just natural to want to walk straight to your destination, and an environment which allows people to do this is one they will feel comfortable walking in and will want to walk in. Asking people to do something unnatural like walk a long way to a crosswalk just to get somewhere they were already fairly close to is pretty car-centric and largely ignores the needs of pedestrians and what feels right to them.

[shawnw]

If nothing else this is an interesting real-world study of a mid-block crossing in OKC on a VERY busy street.

[ljbab728]

Exactly. And this is fine if you want a suburban environment where everything has a parking lot out front. In the core, we won't be able to put crosswalks in every half-block. Pedestrians need to be encouraged to use the existing infrastructure.

Are you familiar at all with Santa Monica Blvd. A number of years ago it was totally redone west of La Cienega Blvd. It is an area that is much more densely developed than 23rd and the interest for a pedestrian on both sides of the street is high. Never-the-less, they designed many mid-block pedestrian crosswalks. It works extremely well and obviously not all planners agree with you.

[Uptowner]

You're all missing the point. It's got nothing to do with proximity to the parking and everything to do with proximity to the ENTRANCE.

[Pete]

Small thing, but Planned Parenthood planning a nice renovation of a highly visible shopping center corner at 619 NW 23rd:

[HangryHippo]

Excellent news. That building is in need of some TLC.

[Pete]

Adding those windows and landscaping should make a nice difference.

[HangryHippo]

Are they going to take that ugly brown metal awning (?) down?

[AP]

The brown awning will be staying? Damn...

[2Lanez]

Yeah, awning needs to go.

[2Lanez]

You're all missing the point. It's got nothing to do with proximity to the parking and everything to do with proximity to the ENTRANCE.

I definitely don't agree with this. If the parking lot wasn't right there, there would be no crosswalk.

[Ross MacLochness]

I definitely don't agree with this. If the parking lot wasn't right there, there would be no crosswalk.

Well fwiw, we may be getting a mid block crossing between the ball park and the canal. No parking lot in either of those locations.

[2Lanez]

Much different environment. Not comparable.

[catch22]

Well fwiw, we may be getting a mid block crossing between the ball park and the canal. No parking lot in either of those locations.

That's not a mid block crossing, it would actually be a restored block crossing. California Ave is essentially the north canal running through the ball park just north of the 2nd to 3rd base paths all the way out into right center field.