New Streetcar Routes in Other Cities

[shane453]

I thought maybe it would be nice to keep this separate from the main streetcar thread. There is a LOT of streetcar planning going on in other cities across the country, so as news becomes available we can post information on them here. It's neat looking at other proposed routes.

Cincinnati's route is available today. It's a 5-mile line for $130 million, and it seems to be fully funded from a patchwork of local, state, and federal funding. They have used 21 stops and connect downtown CBD/cultural areas with the University of Cincinnati which has 40,000 students. The couplet strategy is notable.

[Kerry]

The couplet strategy is notable.

Like Portland, the couplet is only used because of the one way streets. Where the streets aren't one way they don't use couplets. The area along Vine between downtown and the university is going to be really cool. It does run through some pretty rough areas though, especially the north part of the urban core.

[Kerry]

Here is a link to the Cincinnati Street Car website. Not sure if it is the official site but it has a lot interesting info - including their long-term plans.

http://www.cincystreetcar.com/index.html

[shane453]

Thanks for that link. Denver seems to be the most prolific and serious about LRT, with all of their projects partially or fully funded and ready to start this year or next with more than 80 miles of light rail. Very impressive

* I-225 Corridor LRT – 2015 – FUNDED
o 10.5-mile new line connecting Southeast and East Lines
o Construction set to begin in 2011
o Relevant articles on the Transport Politic: Denver Sales Tax Increase?, 13 March 2009; Denver Region Comes Closer to Endorsing Sales Tax Increase for Transit, 13 March 2009; Denver FasTracks Problems Expose Complexities of Building Transit at the Regional Scale, 7 December 2009.
* Gold Line LRT – 2016 – Partially Funded
o 11-mile new line from Union Station to the west
o Construction set to begin in 2012
* North Metro Corridor DMU – 2015 – FUNDED
o 18-mile new line from Union Station to the north
o Construction set to begin in 2012
* Northwest Corridor DMU – 2014 – FUNDED
o 41-mile new line from Union Station to the north
o Construction set to begin in 2012
* Southeast Corridor LRT – 2016 - Partially Funded
o 2-mile extension of existing line south
o Construction set to begin in 2011
* Southwest Corridor LRT – 2016 – Partially Funded
o 2.5-mile extension of existing line south
o Construction set to begin in 2011

[Spartan]

Interestingly, Tulsa is also stepping up to the plate trying to pull streetcar off. Although I doubt they'll get anywhere soon...their plan probably just involves asking for federal funds. Knowing that city, I doubt that they are prepared to fund anything on their own.

The problem with OKC is that we don't have a university located in a straight line 3-4 miles from downtown that has 40,000 students at it. Or else that would be the obvious line we need. That strategy should be clear for cities like Austin, Madison, Berkeley-Oakland, Seattle, etc. The problem in OKC is that we have to invent destinations for streetcar to go to, and it can't be downtown-to-campus. OCU has what, 4,000 students? That doesn't make it worthwhile.

[Larry OKC]

True, the Mayor stated recently: "Our university system, which in Central Oklahoma includes 120,000 college students", problem is they are spread out all over the Metro area. Now if OU was a little closer by...

[Hutch]

Here's the initial streetcar system planned for Milwaukee...

[Hutch]

Here's Portland's existing and planned streetcar system...

[Kerry]

Here is some info on an issue we are having here in Jax with our Skyway system.

Jacksonville mayoral candidates call for closing Skyway, but lack power to do it

City Hall doesn't have the authority to close it; and feds would want $90 million back.

BRUCE LIPSKY/The Times-Union
The JTA's Skyway moves above Hogan Street passing City Hall going to the Hemming Plaza Station on Friday.

BRUCE LIPSKY/The Times-Union
The JTA's Skyway stops at the Hemming Plaza Station on Friday. The money-losing operation has been derided for years.

Infographic

By Larry Hannan
Two candidates for Jacksonville mayor have indicated they'll look into shutting down the Skyway if elected.

There's one problem: The mayor doesn't have the authority to do it.
Mike Hogan and Rick Mullaney have advocated getting rid of the Skyway, or at least shutting it down, in recent campaign appearances. But the 2.5-mile downtown people-mover, long derided for not going anywhere, is controlled by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, not by City Hall.

Despite its name, JTA is a state agency that doesn't have to do what the city says. Money to operate the Skyway comes primarily from sales and gas tax revenue, federal funding and a small amount of fare money.

"It is true," said JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock, "that the city has nothing to do with the Skyway."

By almost any measure, the Skyway has been a disaster. When it was built 20 years ago, JTA promised 100,000 riders per month but, in 2010, ridership was a third of that.
The system is also a huge money-loser. In 2010, it cost $5 million to operate it, but fares and parking revenue generated only $500,000.

Shutting down the Skyway could also have other financial implications. JTA said it would have to reimburse the federal government around $90 million if the Skyway is torn down because it paid the majority of costs to build it.

Officials with the U.S. Department of Transportation confirmed that the federal government would seek reimbursement if the system was shut down before meeting the end of its "useful life."

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

But that hasn't stopped Mullaney and Hogan from saying they want to get rid of it.
The Skyway is item No. 28 on Mullaney's 34-point plan. The plan says the Skyway is not working and costs millions of dollars each year.

Mullaney acknowledged that as mayor he would lack the authority to shut the Skyway down.

"But I don't really think that matters," Mullaney said. "The money JTA spends to operate the Skyway could be transferred to other areas of mass transit that people actually use."

If elected, Mullaney plans to meet with JTA officials and press for a moratorium, with the Skyway ceasing to operate for an undetermined amount of time.

"I want to take a step back and look at whether this will actually be useful," Mullaney said. "I think we can all agree that the way it is now doesn't work."

He doesn't want to tear the Skyway down and is open to it resuming operations sometime in the future when it is a better fit for the community.

The issue of having to pay back the government also needs to be addressed, but Mullaney doesn't believe the federal government would ask for the money back unless the tracks were actually torn down.

Hogan has said several times that he wants to get rid of the Skyway.

His staff e-mailed the Times-Union a three-sentence statement that said he's always been against the Skyway and believes the money spent funding it could be better used elsewhere.

Hogan did not respond to calls and e-mails asking how he'd shut it down, and whether he'd do it even if the federal government demanded reimbursement.

The other mayoral candidates aren't as determined to shut the Skyway down.
In fact, Audrey Moran wants to keep it open.

"I don't think it makes any sense to shut it down when you consider that we might have to pay $90 million to do it," Moran said. "We need to figure out a way to make it work."
The key is to redevelop downtown in a way that makes people want to come and ride the Skyway, she said.

Alvin Brown said he's neutral on it.

"Since the mayor doesn't control the Skyway," Brown said, "it makes more sense to push a combined vision."

As mayor, Brown would get together with JTA, downtown redevelopment groups, public officials like Mica and U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla., and private companies like CSX and ask what could be done to improve the Skyway.

Warren Lee said he'd look at ways to make the Skyway more viable.
"If there's no way to make it better, then we should shut it down," Lee said. "But that should only happen after we've looked at all the possibilities."

Lee said Mullaney and Hogan were irresponsible in calling for the shutdown of the Skyway when they lacked the ability to do it.

Moran agreed. "But to be fair," Moran said, "Skyway bashing has been a Jacksonville tradition for a long time."

The Skyway was built in the late 1980s for $185.7 million, with the federal government paying 57 percent of the cost, the state paying 20 percent, JTA paying 13 percent and the city paying 10 percent.

"We are prepared to work with the new mayor and will demonstrate how important the Skyway is," Blaylock said.

It's also not in JTA's interest to antagonize City Hall.

While the Skyway isn't funded by the city, JTA will soon be asking the mayor and City Council to extend the local 6-cent gas tax, which is scheduled to expire in 2016. The tax generates $30 million a year for JTA.

Blaylock said he is confident the next mayor will come to understand its importance.
JTA has plans to install bus-only lanes, is also looking at constructing a light rail, or trolley system, as well as building a commuter rail line from downtown Jacksonville to the suburbs. That system of transportation will feed into the Skyway, Blaylock said, increasing ridership and making the people-mover an essential part of the downtown renaissance.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2...#ixzz1G1Q337Yk

[BG918]

Interestingly, Tulsa is also stepping up to the plate trying to pull streetcar off. Although I doubt they'll get anywhere soon...their plan probably just involves asking for federal funds. Knowing that city, I doubt that they are prepared to fund anything on their own.

The problem with OKC is that we don't have a university located in a straight line 3-4 miles from downtown that has 40,000 students at it. Or else that would be the obvious line we need. That strategy should be clear for cities like Austin, Madison, Berkeley-Oakland, Seattle, etc. The problem in OKC is that we have to invent destinations for streetcar to go to, and it can't be downtown-to-campus. OCU has what, 4,000 students? That doesn't make it worthwhile.

OCU? I know it has only a few thousand students but still a destination. Also OUHSC with 3,500 students.

Commuter rail to Norman makes the most sense for connecting OKC to OU and its 26,000 students.

Tulsa would love to connect TU with downtown as a way to revitalize 11th St/Route 66. That is what that corridor needs to really see any major investment. Another line to Uptown south of downtown (which would provide a connection to the riverfront) that loops to Cherry Street has also been discussed but no real planning has been done yet. I think Tulsa is waiting to see what OKC does.

[okclee]

With all of these other cities adding or expanding streetcar / light rail.

What does this do to Okc?

I was hoping our streetcar would help Okc move up a notch or two into a higher "Tier 2" type of city. But with so many other cities currently with streetcar or future streetcar, it seems all Okc will do is try to keep pace and not really move upward.

Remind me again, where the Okc streetcar will place in comparison to other cities with streetcar. Will the Okc streetcar system be over and above others or does Okc fall somewhere in the middle?

[shane453]

With all of these other cities adding or expanding streetcar / light rail.

What does this do to Okc?

I was hoping our streetcar would help Okc move up a notch or two into a higher "Tier 2" type of city. But with so many other cities currently with streetcar or future streetcar, it seems all Okc will do is try to keep pace and not really move upward.

Remind me again, where the Okc streetcar will place in comparison to other cities with streetcar. Will the Okc streetcar system be over and above others or does Okc fall somewhere in the middle?

Because of MAPS, we seem to be ahead of other cities. We are self-funded while other cities are trying to scrape things together. Our starter system is definitely very ambitious too, a lot of cities are doing routes of 1-4 miles and we are shooting for 5-7. We are definitely ahead of the general curve, except compared to Portland and DC. Even if we were just keeping pace, a streetcar doesn't only serve as a competitive advantage, it mainly provides internal benefits to our city no matter what the conditions in other cities are.

[okclee]

Good point on being self-funded and the internal benefits for our city no matter other cities.

I took this same question over to the "Modern Streetcar Transit Maps3" discussion thread too.

[BoulderSooner]

Because of MAPS, we seem to be ahead of other cities. We are self-funded while other cities are trying to scrape things together. Our starter system is definitely very ambitious too, a lot of cities are doing routes of 1-4 miles and we are shooting for 5-7. We are definitely ahead of the general curve, except compared to Portland and DC. Even if we were just keeping pace, a streetcar doesn't only serve as a competitive advantage, it mainly provides internal benefits to our city no matter what the conditions in other cities are.

remember we are very likely to get a 75 mil start grant from the FTA and that will push us to 8-10 miles or more

[Kerry]

Read the story I posted above about Jacksonville. If we close down the Skyway which is huge money loser we have to pay back the $90 million the feds kicked in. This is why Rick Scott turned downt the HSR money. If it doesn't work the feds will want their money back.

[BoulderSooner]

Read the story I posted above about Jacksonville. If we close down the Skyway which is huge money loser we have to pay back the $90 million the feds kicked in. This is why Rick Scott turned downt the HSR money. If it doesn't work the feds will want their money back.

neither of those directly related to modern street car

[SkyWestOKC]

I think he is implying if we take federal funds and the streetcar doesn't work for us (the federally funded portion) they may want to get their money back, or at least some of it. It would be worth finding out for sure before we agree to take it.

[Kerry]

I think he is implying if we take federal funds and the streetcar doesn't work for us (the federally funded portion) they may want to get their money back, or at least some of it. It would be worth finding out for sure before we agree to take it.

Thank you SkyWestOKC, that is what I meant. It is the reason our governor didn;t take the HSR money for the Tampa-Orlando train. If it doesn't work out we would have been on the hook for several billion dollars. Although, the Skyway system here in Jax might not be the best example. It was a poorly conceived plan from the beginning.

[shane453]

There might be another $25 million grant returned to the Feds now. Looks like the Cincinnati streetcar in the first post here is now in danger of being canceled. http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...ject-in-peril/

As long as our state leadership stays against the national trend of Republicans going against rail just because it apparently is a current Republican thing to do, we are in a very good position. And our local leadership, conservative or not, remains pretty firmly in favor of rail investment.

[BoulderSooner]

There might be another $25 million grant returned to the Feds now. Looks like the Cincinnati streetcar in the first post here is now in danger of being canceled. http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...ject-in-peril/

As long as our state leadership stays against the national trend of Republicans going against rail just because it apparently is a current Republican thing to do, we are in a very good position. And our local leadership, conservative or not, remains pretty firmly in favor of rail investment.

that is the great thing about our program .. it does have anything to do with the state

[ljbab728]

that is the great thing about our program .. it does have anything to do with the state

Exactly. Can you imagine where our plans would stand if we had any reliance at all on state funding?

[Larry OKC]

Exactly. Can you imagine where our plans would stand if we had any reliance at all on state funding?

???

While it is true that the startup MAPS 3 Streetcars are not dependent on any outside funding (unlike the Streetcars in the original MAPS), any expansion etc seems fairly depended on outside funding. Regional co-operation and Federal funds. It has been mentioned by the Mayor that the State needs to be involved too (specifically re: a line to the Capital). Am I incorrect on this?

[Spartan]

OCU? I know it has only a few thousand students but still a destination. Also OUHSC with 3,500 students.

Commuter rail to Norman makes the most sense for connecting OKC to OU and its 26,000 students.

That makes it a worthy stop on a line, not somewhere that I legitimately think can anchor the end opposite downtown.

Commuter rail isn't part of the equation right now, but I am sure it is the eventual goal of where this is headed. As far as I know, the planning underway is only referencing the commuter to make sure that current plans accommodate future needs, which would be commuter rail from Edmond to Norman. We'll need to figure out a different funding solution for that one..

[BoulderSooner]

???

While it is true that the startup MAPS 3 Streetcars are not dependent on any outside funding (unlike the Streetcars in the original MAPS), any expansion etc seems fairly depended on outside funding. Regional co-operation and Federal funds. It has been mentioned by the Mayor that the State needs to be involved too (specifically re: a line to the Capital). Am I incorrect on this?

expansion of the street car won't have/need any regional co-operation or funding .. we will/should get some federal funding for extra miles at the start ...

as far as the state/capital .. it will be for them to decide if they want to play ... the line to the HSC will be able to extend to the capital.

as for the future light rail .. that will take at the very least take lots of regional co-op and maybe some state funding

[Kerry]

Larry - once the streetcar is built people will be begging for it to come to their neighborhood. Expanding streetcar/light-rail lines is never a problem. Cities can't build the extensions fast enough. The hard part is getting started.