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Thread: County Jail

  1. #26

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    I agree but if the tax vote fails, then the Feds will come in, take over the Jail, force the improvements to be made and property taxes would automatically increase to cover the bill. No vote or say in the matter at all. Definitely one of those damned if we do...damned if we don't situations.

    I haven't read the link in the thread yet but are they still planning on removing 500 beds to keep costs of the new jail under control? One of the main sticking points with the Feds is overcrowding and I don't see how removing 500 beds (and spending 100s of millions in the process) solves the underlying problem.

    Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?

  2. Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    He may be referring to the fact that the Jail has been surveyed and found to be insuffucient in terms of rooms, beds, design, and a whole bunch of other crud. Jails must meet a minimum requirement of some sort I would guess, like they should, or the government will step in. Someone could step in and put that in more appropriate terms.

    I support them moving from Downtown. I don't like the idea of having maximum security inmates a couple of blocks from housing, entertainment districts, and etc. Not only that, but when I drive down there and I see all the potential that little nook of Police Central has, I just can't help but know that these police businesses aren't what's best for that area. However, I don't want instant gradification. I would like to see the area change gradually over a few years to keep business occupancy up and healthy. Whether we like it or not, the police do keep the buildings maintained and alive.

  3. #28

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by BOBTHEBUILDER View Post
    You are exactly right, and while we are at voting people out, why stop with the county people. We also need to vote out many of our city council, state senators as well as state representatives. There is corruption at every level of govt., some are better at covering their tracks than others.
    No one else is as bad as Sheriff Whetsel..

  4. #29

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by proud2Bsooner View Post
    Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?
    Well he's referring to the fact that the feds have threatened to come in and take possession of the jail if we fail to meet the DOJ requirements. I'm extremely anti-jail and I'm not disputing this fact. However, I would welcome the feds to take ownership of our jail. That would be the best thing that could ever happen to the Oklahoma County government.

    I do not care that OK County is feeling insulted and underappreciated by this, I don't even want the county govt to exist anymore. If they wanted to keep possession of the damn jail, they shouldn't have built it like it is now, they should have maintained it, and they should have been better stewards of the bookoos of cold hard money that we're pumping through their corrupt little scheme.

  5. #30

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    "Officials prefer sales tax to federal takeover:"

    http://kosu.org/2009/12/officials-pr...over-for-jail/

  6. #31

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by dismayed View Post
    "Officials prefer sales tax to federal takeover:"

    http://kosu.org/2009/12/officials-pr...over-for-jail/
    BREAKING NEWS: County officials favor the county getting more money so that the jail can stay under their jurisdiction.

  7. #32

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Architect2010 View Post
    I support them moving from Downtown. I don't like the idea of having maximum security inmates a couple of blocks from housing, entertainment districts, and etc. Not only that, but when I drive down there and I see all the potential that little nook of Police Central has, I just can't help but know that these police businesses aren't what's best for that area. However, I don't want instant gradification. I would like to see the area change gradually over a few years to keep business occupancy up and healthy. Whether we like it or not, the police do keep the buildings maintained and alive.
    Granted there might be more productive uses for that area when considering the overall development of downtown but I see no problem with it being near the areas you mention. I've never seen anything indicating issues such as jail escapes, etc. There was a similar discussion in the Norman thread about the new Cleveland County Jail which is being built in an industrial area of north Norman and people were worried about the effects on that area. Jails are a necessity, like it or not. When I lived in Mustang, I was one block from the police station and city jail and always felt safer by being that close.

  8. #33

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    The kosu page has two December 09 articles about the jail. Each mentioned a desire to see an election in May.
    Don't know if someone read tea leaves, took a straw poll or three, or just thought better of it, but yeah, did not happen.

  9. #34

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    We have the same issue up here in Tulsa with the David L. Moss center in the northwestern corner of downtown Tulsa. It is in a dead-zone, and is a hinderance to growth in the Brady district (unless you consider bail bondsmen great development). You aren't going to find too many people interested in purchasing a loft or eating fine dining directly next to a criminal-justice facility, regardless of the unlikeliness of an escape or how nice the exterior looks.

    On the other hand, I understand the cost savings of having the facility near the court house for transport of criminals.

  10. #35

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I like having the jail close. I can't tell you how many times I have been in court and they forgot to bring over a prisoner (not in OKC but I can't imagine that it would be that different). Usually, we would just wait because it wouldn't take that long to round them up. If they move the jail away, a lot of hearings would have to be rescheduled and that is a hardship on people taking off work for a hearing. They can do video arraignments for some things but not all. If they have to reschedule, some folks are going to sit in jail a lot longer than they might otherwise if there is an administrative mix up on bringing them to court.

  11. #36

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    First we need to get Whetsel out of the county sheriff's office. Then we need to vote out the corrupt bums on the county commission. Then we need to vote down any single penny that they ask for to build a new jail...

    I really get annoyed at the county govt. I don't even enjoy finding points of contention with them like I do the city govt, which I actually like those guys a lot. The county has a long history of corruption and incompetence, and I know they would lose any kind of ballot initiative they ask for to build a new jail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    I agree but if the tax vote fails, then the Feds will come in, take over the Jail, force the improvements to be made and property taxes would automatically increase to cover the bill. No vote or say in the matter at all. Definitely one of those damned if we do...damned if we don't situations.

    I haven't read the link in the thread yet but are they still planning on removing 500 beds to keep costs of the new jail under control? One of the main sticking points with the Feds is overcrowding and I don't see how removing 500 beds (and spending 100s of millions in the process) solves the underlying problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by proud2Bsooner View Post
    Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Architect2010 View Post
    He may be referring to the fact that the Jail has been surveyed and found to be insuffucient in terms of rooms, beds, design, and a whole bunch of other crud. Jails must meet a minimum requirement of some sort I would guess, like they should, or the government will step in. Someone could step in and put that in more appropriate terms.

    I support them moving from Downtown. I don't like the idea of having maximum security inmates a couple of blocks from housing, entertainment districts, and etc. Not only that, but when I drive down there and I see all the potential that little nook of Police Central has, I just can't help but know that these police businesses aren't what's best for that area. However, I don't want instant gradification. I would like to see the area change gradually over a few years to keep business occupancy up and healthy. Whether we like it or not, the police do keep the buildings maintained and alive.
    Exactly. This issue is old news and has been up for discussion for at least the last 2 years. It has already been deemed that if we don't act by "x date" then the feds step in, approve it at our expense and we pay for it without a vote of the people. Why are we still debating this it's not up for discussion in reality. It's as simple as do we want to propose our own ideas and approve them or wait for the feds to do what they want.

    Spartan, I don't think it's as elementary as you think things are, I believe the feds step out and hand it back over to the county after it gets built. I could be wrong though.

  12. #37

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    The area isn't that bad really. I lived in Sycamore for several years (less than a block away from the jail). Aside from someone stealing my crappy old bike, we had zero troubles. I don't have a problem walking in the area as I do from time to time. The sorts of folks who occupy that jail stay inside and do not tarry long after their release.

  13. #38

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyQuilts View Post
    I like having the jail close. I can't tell you how many times I have been in court and they forgot to bring over a prisoner (not in OKC but I can't imagine that it would be that different). Usually, we would just wait because it wouldn't take that long to round them up. If they move the jail away, a lot of hearings would have to be rescheduled and that is a hardship on people taking off work for a hearing. They can do video arraignments for some things but not all. If they have to reschedule, some folks are going to sit in jail a lot longer than they might otherwise if there is an administrative mix up on bringing them to court.
    I foresee a significant expansion of appearance via video linkup in the years ahead. Not saying it's a great development, but as jails become more crowded, relocated further away from judge central, and govts. reduce security bodies to offset hikes in salary, insurance, etc. ... yeah, it'll come.

  14. #39

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinpate View Post
    I foresee a significant expansion of appearance via video linkup in the years ahead. Not saying it's a great development, but as jails become more crowded, relocated further away from judge central, and govts. reduce security bodies to offset hikes in salary, insurance, etc. ... yeah, it'll come.
    I wouldn't mind it in an abuse case where a child has to testify but I suspect they would bring over the accused for one of those, even if it was a civil hearing. I hate to think they'd bring a scared child in to testify only to have the hearing continued over a glitch. I've seen that happen a few times to the point where I would check to make sure the clerk knew to notify the jail but it was a fine line to not cross since I didn't represent the accused and didn't want to step on the toes of his/her attorney. And even notifying the clerk was often not a guarantee. On the other hand, if the court had to deal with the hassle of bringing over someone from a distant jail, they might be hyper vigilent to make sure the jail got the word since they wouldn't have the back up plan to just go get them and delay things a few minutes.

  15. #40

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    These are the questions that the County needs to answer before the ask for $400 mil.

    1. How did a jail built in the 90s suddenly become obsolete so soon?
    2. Do you think the lawsuit from the state for not releasing certain prisoners could be a "cause" of overcrowding?
    3. If we refuse to merge the city and county, why not consider just merging the detention facilities? OCPD is getting a renovation as we speak.
    4. How is the County going to make sure that this jail is built right, and that we aren't in the same situation later?
    5. How do you justify spending $400 mil on a new jail when Tulsa County built theirs for less than $100 mil a few years ago?
    6. Can someone explain why in addition to this project, there are at least 11 other prisons under construction right? We've never seen anything NEAR this before. Why the SUDDEN huge boom in prison construction?
    7. And of course, why do you guys suck so bad?

  16. #41

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I don't know the answers, but I have a question to add to 6, I think. Why is Norman building 500 new beds because 75 is too few? It's not like we are getting rid of the 75, we are adding a bunch more. A giant bunch more. Why?

  17. #42

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I don't want to sound any alarms or sound like some conspiracy theorist, because really I'm just biased and hate spending our limited funds on throwaway propositions like our bloated prison system, which to me resembles a giant black hole that we keep shoveling tax money into at an insane rate.

    Someone needs to look into this huge spike in new prisons construction. Excellent question, why does Norman need 500 rooms when 75 is too little? Why does OKC need a $430 million jail when Tulsa County's was less than $100 million 4-5 years ago? Why are there so many jails u/c right now, esp when so many appear to be way bigger than they need be?

    Like I said, don't just vote NO, but vote HELL NO.

  18. #43

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by proud2Bsooner View Post
    Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?
    It occurs when the DOJ goes to federal court and asks a judge for an injunction, appointment of a receiver (sometimes a multiple member control board), and eventually an order forcing the local government to take action to fix the underlying problems. There would likely be an agreed settlement (usually known as a consent order) and that settlement would be entered as a judgement.
    When a government entity (in the case, the county) has a judgement against it, the judgement is assessed out as a property tax. There is no vote of the people required as there would be in a bond issue.

  19. #44

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Someone needs to look into this huge spike in new prisons construction. Excellent question, why does Norman need 500 rooms when 75 is too little? Why does OKC need a $430 million jail when Tulsa County's was less than $100 million 4-5 years ago? Why are there so many jails u/c right now, esp when so many appear to be way bigger than they need be?

    Like I said, don't just vote NO, but vote HELL NO.
    I'm not sure about all of your questions but as for Norman, that isn't just a Norman jail. It's a Cleveland County Jail and Cleveland county has been the fastest growing county in Oklahoma for years. I'm sure the jail is larger than is needed now but what will happen in ten years if they only built what was needed now? Would they have to go back and enlarge the new jail with a much higher building cost? I think they are wise in planning for the future. Other jails such as Canadian County are very overcrowded and having excess space would allow them to take overflow prisoners from other places at least temporarily.

  20. #45

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    I'm not sure about all of your questions but as for Norman, that isn't just a Norman jail. It's a Cleveland County Jail and Cleveland county has been the fastest growing county in Oklahoma for years. I'm sure the jail is larger than is needed now but what will happen in ten years if they only built what was needed now? Would they have to go back and enlarge the new jail with a much higher building cost? I think they are wise in planning for the future. Other jails such as Canadian County are very overcrowded and having excess space would allow them to take overflow prisoners from other places at least temporarily.
    Going from 75 to 500 is 625% growth. Last time I checked Cleveland County's growth rates are just beneath that. I would know, I live there.

    Here's a radical concept...deferred sentences..."legalize it"...drug courts...just don't make me pay for it. It is shocking to me how when times get tough and money is scarce, we all have to cut back..unless you are the U.S. penal system. That would be the appropriate time to double up on funding, even if our law enforcement schemes are stretching our abilities to pay for it. And causing us to have to cut more important things, plain and simple.

    There are a LOT of needs in Cleveland County. The only place with worse roads than downtown OKC is probably anywhere in Cleveland County that was country ten years ago, built up suburbia today. Try Indian Hill Rd, NW 36th, Bryant, Sunnylane...and other crumbling so-called roads. Typical things that go with population growth as evidenced in Cleveland County..needs for new roads, schools, new water, power, other utilities, new parks..new prisons don't typically go into that.

  21. #46

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Going from 75 to 500 is 625% growth. Last time I checked Cleveland County's growth rates are just beneath that. I would know, I live there.
    Spartan, I'm well aware of Cleveland County's growth rates and you don't have to explain anything to me about Cleveland County or Norman. I was born there and grew up there. I still believe it is an excellent move in planning for the future and will save money in the long run.

  22. #47

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    That would explain building a prison with 150 beds...MAYBE 200 if we're really in the mood to SPEND some bank.

    I hate to sound like a stereotypical ignoramus, but why can't we just have a prison like the one in Les Miserables and just throw crooks in there, and then throw away the key? That would be a lot cheaper. I also like that prison in Peru that Joran Van Der Sloot is ending up in. That would be an Oklahoma County Jail we could all be proud of...with some very "spartan" conditions.

  23. #48

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    That would explain building a prison with 150 beds...MAYBE 200 if we're really in the mood to SPEND some bank.

    I hate to sound like a stereotypical ignoramus, but why can't we just have a prison like the one in Les Miserables and just throw crooks in there, and then throw away the key? That would be a lot cheaper. I also like that prison in Peru that Joran Van Der Sloot is ending up in. That would be an Oklahoma County Jail we could all be proud of...with some very "spartan" conditions.
    It could be because that would be illegal. Some day it might be possible that someone that you are related to or really care about might be incarcerated. That can tend to change your viewpoint. You want them to at least be treated humanely. Many prisoners deserve everything they get and more but some are really nice people who get caught up in things that they never intended.

  24. #49

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    And that's why I've also been arguing for drug courts, deferred sentences, decriminalizing certain things, more focus on rehabilitation and less on incarceration, and other things to keep people out of jail. Putting someone in jail, although I've never known any personally that ended up there, I would imagine is the absolute worst thing you can do to someone's future. And the most expensive way you can deal with them, as well. It's a lose-lose proposition, period.

    So which are we going to have? The "spartan" conditions, or more humane treatment?

  25. #50

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    And that's why I've also been arguing for drug courts, deferred sentences, decriminalizing certain things, more focus on rehabilitation and less on incarceration, and other things to keep people out of jail. Putting someone in jail, although I've never known any personally that ended up there, I would imagine is the absolute worst thing you can do to someone's future. And the most expensive way you can deal with them, as well. It's a lose-lose proposition, period.

    So which are we going to have? The "spartan" conditions, or more humane treatment?
    We'll have to change Oklahoma's "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality first. I believe I just saw that in a previous post by you. LOL Just watch some of the current political ads on television for good examples.

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