Hilton Garden Inn

[semisimple]

Kerry, we will have to agree to disagree. There is plenty of room up on Memorial and on NW Expressway to build cookie cutter EIFS chain hmotels. They can be built on Reno on the other side of Lincoln or west of downtown where there aren't any design standards. I don't think the insistence on a significant amount of brick has kept development from occurring. And, to be honest with you, I'd rather have Bricktown stay as it is than settle for a swath of those.

Yeah, I'd hate for you to have to "settle" for some ugly, "generic" midrise (or lowrise).



Toby Keith's sure looks great, and that Residence Inn looks very unique! I could never imagine something like that on Memorial.

As you see, OKC has already settled lots of times in the past.

As I said above, this hotel will stand out as the best in Bricktown if what exists in Austin gets built in OKC. Compared to some of the garbage in lower Bricktown, this development is hardly "settling" and should be the least of your worries.

[Kerry]

If the design stands of Bricktown proper had been applied to Lower Bricktown it would still be a dirt patch.

[Patrick]

Can anyone guess why only two private strucutures have been built in Bricktown and prime lots still sit vacant after almost 20 years?

Mainly because investors buy up those lots with grand plans, and instead decide to hold onto them and turn a profit on them. I don't think it has anything to do with increased requirements and hoops to jump through.

And I think the slowing of development in Bricktown is due to the national recession and not due to the design requirements. Just look at the direction Tuscana has gone up by Quail Springs Mall and other Memorial Road developments that have stalled.

If you take away the design requirements, Bricktown becomes nothing more than a Memorial Road development, and we end up with more surface parking along the canal. I'd rather have that empty grass lot than a surface parking lot fronting the canal.

Design review committees are good for the community. If it weren't for them, we'd have a Walgreens sitting in place of the Gold Dome. We wouldn't have a refurbished Skirvin Hotel. We'd have run down motels lining the canal. The list goes on and on.

[Rover]

Being involved in the construction industry I have received certain lead information regarding these hotels. The first sentence is "As of 1/18/11 a development team is considering this project and determining whether this project is feasible....."

All design constraints that will add cost or delays will be considered in the feasibility of the project. If the costs mount beyond a point where the risk/reward evaluation is positive, I am sure that like good developers they will pass and go to the other better projects they might have. That is not saying we shouldn't have appropriate standards, but understand that the geek with high standards might not have a date to the prom if he insists on only bringing Miss America. And that is our choice.

Compromise can be good for all parties. Quality development will be easier as the demand to be in the area increases and the opportunity for income exceeds the expected rate of return. In the meantime, we have to be smart about our efforts to promote GOOD development and REASONABLE standards.

It seems to me the whole purpose of MAPS, the canal and building up bricktown was to get development into a blighted area and to increase tax revenue from a deteriorating core. It was not the worship of red bricks. There is no set % of bricks on a building that constitutes holiness. If we want a faithful reproduction of 1920s architecture and materials we should hire Disney to come create it. I do work for them all over and they do a great job of that sort of thing. But if we want a vibrant core urban area we need to be smart.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I'd hate for you to have to "settle" for some ugly, "generic" midrise (or lowrise).



Toby Keith's sure looks great, and that Residence Inn looks very unique! I could never imagine something like that on Memorial.

As you see, OKC has already settled lots of times in the past.

As I said above, this hotel will stand out as the best in Bricktown if what exists in Austin gets built in OKC. Compared to some of the garbage in lower Bricktown, this development is hardly "settling" and should be the least of your worries.

And just beyond that Toby Keith's is a sea of surface parking along the canal.

[BDP]

Anything south of Reno is not in the Bricktown core and falls outside of the design review. The Residence was not approved by the design committee.

I know, but the committee is there to try and prevent more of it from being built in the area under its jurisdiction.

If the design stands of Bricktown proper had been applied to Lower Bricktown it would still be a dirt patch.

And with more potential than it has now. Maybe that is part of why it is dying, as you say. The new development brought nothing new to the city and people are quickly losing interest. That and many owners have decided to keep their property for spec rather than develop it.

If you like cookie cutter mediocrity, why are you interested in bricktown at all? The city already has an abundance of it on memorial and I-240 that was all built with little to no community involvement. You should be more than satisfied. In the end, if bricktown wasn't brick, which set it apart from the typical development of the last 30 years, then it would all still be "dilapidated" buildings. It was its character that saved it in the first place and inspired a whole movement downtown. We could piss that away, but that would be stupid, especially when there is still SOOOOO much space in the city left for plenty more compromised developments. There is no long term downside to at least trying to create and preserve just a little bit of character in Oklahoma City, if for nothing else, so that we can actually sell it to visitors and potential residents.

Trust me, if bricktown never allows another building with anything other then brick on it, there will still be SEVERAL new hotels and developments like the ones you want built in the next ten years. Most of Oklahoma City is pretty much under the guidelines of "do whatever you want as long as there is enough parking". Trying to create and preserve the character of a 100 year old 9 block area in a city of 600 square miles just doesn't seem that misguided. There is so much more upside to doing that, than to trying and pattern it after everything else you already have.

In fact, why don't they just build it in lower bricktown? It already is what it is and it has no character to save or preserve. This project would actually be a huge improvement on that area as it is right now....

The reality is that if bricktown is suffering it probably has more to do with the mediocrity of the new development in the area than with the unique character of the district defined by its brick structures.

[Patrick]

If the design stands of Bricktown proper had been applied to Lower Bricktown it would still be a dirt patch.

Maybe, maybe not. If it was still a dirt patch, it would be due to politics more than anything.

And the surface parking along the canal beyond Toby Keith's is less than appealing. And there's still a dirt patch west of Toby Keith's, and Urban Renewal has done nothing to enforce Randy Hogan to keep his promises in constructing a building there.

[TStheThird]

It is amazing to me, that in the land of brick, we see so much EIFS. If you combined some metal and glass with brick, you could get a nice modern look that would blend in quite well in bricktown.

[Pete]

It is amazing to me, that in the land of brick, we see so much EIFS. If you combined some metal and glass with brick, you could get a nice modern look that would blend in quite well in bricktown.

I made the same point earlier in the thread. I'm sure the reason for EIFS is cost.

Personally, I'd like to see more developments with red brick and more modern touches as opposed to trying to make something new look old. You simply can't replicate those old details without tremendous expense and not have it end up looking exactly like what it is: a cheap imitation.


As a side note, I'd like to see this project done as the Hampton Inn has clearly been good for everyone involved. But Bricktown isn't going to die without it and if the economics of doing it right don't make sense at this point, then everyone should wait until they do. We are still in a very rough economy, after all. In a few years -- if not sooner -- there are likely to be many more projects come forth.

[mcca7596]

That would look great, preferably with a darker brick though.

[Rover]

Negotiations always fail when one side or the other overestimates their leverage. Private investors and developers are non-plussed by the ideals. They will capitulate when the perceived financial opportunity is great enough to accept the other party's demands. To date, OKC and Bricktown clearly has not provided proof enough of financial opportunity to overcome. Maybe it will, in time. This developer will understand more than any what the opportunity is because of their success with the Hampton. But they will have a level they will go to. If we push past that level, they will pick up their ball and go home. What we can force them to do will be relative to cost and perceived opportunity...pure and simple. A developer in Wisconsin is not going to be overly altruistic.

If we are to hold to our highest ideals, then the city needs to develop the properties precisely to its wishes and to try to recover its investment on behalf of the citizens. However, this suggestion meets great opposition on here when suggested. If the city will not or cannot do that, then it MUST negotiate with private enterprise and get as close to its ideals as possible. And that will depend on each developer and each specific opportunity, as well as the state of the economy, etc.

[Pete]

To date, OKC and Bricktown clearly has not provided proof enough of financial opportunity to overcome.

As much as we all love to criticize what hasn't been done or lament the projects that never got off the drawing board, there have been dozens and dozens of projects completed in and around Bricktown and by any measure it's a wildly successful and thriving district. Even in this horrible economy several developments are now just getting underway or expanding.

Some projects are just ill-conceived or badly timed. Making excessive concessions and abandoning agreed-upon standards might allow one or two projects to get done in the near term but the longer-term is the issue here.


I'm sure Pitman's group and the design committee can come to some compromise. But if they can't, I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.

[okcpulse]

Maybe, maybe not. If it was still a dirt patch, it would be due to politics more than anything.

And the surface parking along the canal beyond Toby Keith's is less than appealing. And there's still a dirt patch west of Toby Keith's, and Urban Renewal has done nothing to enforce Randy Hogan to keep his promises in constructing a building there.

I think we may have found the perfect site for a convention center.

[Steve]

Take a look around - Bricktown is already becoming irrelevant. Want to kill Bricktown, keep it from changing with the times. It is a pattern recreated across America.

Step 1: Create enterainment district from abandonded warehouses
Step 2: Discourage new development with strict design standards
Step 3: Watch entertainment district die.

Kerry, I've been covering design review for 15 years. I've yet to see an example in Bricktown where design standards killed a project (I have, however, seen it happen in MidTown and NW 23). I have seen design review prevent the following in Bricktown:
- A franchise style McDonalds
- A truckstop
- A Hampton Inn with more EIFS than brick (as I recall)

Kerry, how often do you get to visit Bricktown? I'm the first to write about the area's problems, etc., but where is the evidence that it's dying or in danger of dying?
As for the question of whether urban design guidelines were responsible for the scrapping of the Holiday Inn and Candlewood Inn projects, no, not really. The Candlewood involved a broker who didn't adequately foresee challenges posed by the existence of a billboard and cell phone tower on the site. The Holiday Inn is a tougher case study - it did go through a delay of a few months to totally redo the design. But the original design was widely criticized both by Bricktown, the design committee, and people on this site. And would that few months have allowed the developer to obtain financing before the crash? I don't know...

[UnFrSaKn]

[Pete]

IMHO the biggest issue around the future of Oklahoma City is raising the quality of planning and development.

I love OKC more than anyone but if you spend much time elsewhere, you quickly realize the quality of projects (design, materials used, etc.) is well below not only a lot of cities, I'd even say the large majority of them. I hate to be negative but there are still big chunks of town built up in the last 20-30 years that are downright embarrassing.

Fortunately, most the development / re-development in and around the downtown area has been pretty darn good. It's the one place where more is demanded and expected.

Frankly, I'd much, much rather err on the side of demanding more from developers -- at least in the central core. And I'm grateful the city leadership has established these review committees to provide what I hope will be -- within a reasonable measure -- a higher standard.

[brianinok]

Kerry's argument is a red herring. Bricktown proper is comparably urban and has few open lots. The lots that have not had something built have not been in the right hands when the economy supported construction. Projects have been proposed and died NOT BECAUSE OF DESIGN STANDARDS, but because they COULD NOT SECURE FUNDING. This is an important distinction. And there have been a large amount of remodels in Bricktown because buildings are existing.

[J. Pitman]

IMHO the biggest issue around the future of Oklahoma City is raising the quality of planning and development.

I love OKC more than anyone but if you spend much time elsewhere, you quickly realize the quality of projects (design, materials used, etc.) is well below not only a lot of cities, I'd even say the large majority of them. I hate to be negative but there are still big chunks of areas built up in the last 20-30 that are downright embarrassing.

Fortunately, most the development / re-development in and around the downtown area has been pretty darn good. It's the one area where more is demanded and expected.

Frankly, I'd much, much rather err on the side of demanding more from developers -- at least in the central core. And I'm grateful the city leadership has established these review committees to provide what I hope will be -- within a reasonable measure -- a higher standard.

I have absolutely no problem with the strict design standards, but it is a balancing act.

The real roadblock in the development of Bricktown is all the surface parking. Many of the surface lots are also owned by a hand full of property owners. Why develop an old building or a surface lot when you make a killing on parking?

[Steve]

Here's something people don't like to talk about: did you know a property owner faces a smaller assessment to pay into the Business Improvement District for a surface parking lot than for a building on that same lot?

[dankrutka]

I'll agree with Steve, I don't understand the assertion that Bricktown is somehow dying?!?!? From my perspective, Bricktown is doing the best it has ever done. As others have mentioned, the reason for less development can be attributed to the economy, the value of surface parking lots, and the availability of numerous buildings (thus negating the need for building tons of new ones). I'm just glad Kerry isn't on the review committee.

[Pete]

Here are the three one-story buildings that would be demolished:

310 E. Sheridan built in 1950



312 E. Sheridan built in 1963



314 E. Sheridan built in 1950

[Steve]

I don't see how anyone who takes a glance at Bricktown right now can say it's dying. The ACM is thriving and growing, providing a good stable base of young creative types to fill the streets throughout the week. We've seen good additions like the Bricktown Candy Co., Peachwave Yogurt, Michael Murphy's Dueling Pianos and the Bricktown Marketplace enjoy relatively successful openings the past couple of years. Lower Bricktown remains 100 percent leased after a couple of turn-overs. And now we're talking about more than 200 new hotel rooms coming into the district. Kerry, help me understand how Bricktown is "dying"?
Have there been some moves made by Bricktown property owners in the past that led to places like West End facing? Yes. But they've also learned a bit as well....

[Kerry]

In 20 years what are the three new private sector buildings in Bricktown?

1. The Power Alley parking garage
2. Hampton Inn
3. McDonalds

Imagine yourself in 1993 about to vote on MAPS and the 'big sell' from the pro-MAPS crowd is that it will lure a parking garage, Hampton Inn, and McDonalds to the area over the next 20 years. Would you vote for it?

Of course the canal led to the renovation of old buildings along the canal but I think we have reached the end of that. In addition to changing the color of the brick on the new hotel, they also have to prove the existing one story buildings are not historic. I am not even sure how you do that. If the convention center is placed on the Lumberyard site some have proposed building the convention hotel north of Reno. Do you think building a 500 to 750 room convention hotel out of brick is even feasible? No way.

Pretty soon multiple areas around downtown are going to become competitors to Bricktown. We are already seeing this in Deep Deuce which has had more construction in the last 5 years than Bricktown has seen is 20 years, with nary a dime of direct MAPS involvement. Bricktown is helping every part of downtown grow except for Bricktown and pretty soon it will be replaced as the driving influence by a streetcar (which might not even go to Bricktown). When that happens, Bricktown will die.

Over the next few years the park area is going to become the focus and if Fred Hall succeeds in creating a retail development on the Ford site and Preftakes does something with his Devon adjacent property, it won't take long until Bricktown is an after-though and irrelevant.

Many people die of cancer who just 6 months earlier thought they were as healthy as they ever have been.

[okcboy]

Shouldn't the committee be more concernerd about the pop up tent tied down to a street sign on Mickey Mantle than a major hotel investment in a entertainment district.
In the beginning it was never intended to be a HP district.

[G.Walker]

Kerry...I disagree, Bricktown is more vibrant then ever, when was the last time you were actually in Bricktown? Me and my family go at least once a month, and every time we go it's great, concerts and Thunder games held at the Oklahoma City Arena bring constant traffic to Btown, moreover, at least half of the people who visit Btown aren't even from Oklahoma City, they are from rural areas throughout the state visiting. Btown is thriving, I don't see it dying anytime soon...