OKC Chamber now supporting grocery store wine/beer sales

[ljbab728]

Jethrol:

While I don't think we have seen a dramatic increase in crime, there has been increases in gambling addiction and the associated crimes that stem from it. ...

Do you have evidence or is that just your opinion?

[Larry OKC]

Do you have evidence or is that just your opinion?

Not just my opinion, the Oklahoman has run stories on it. If you are wanting links etc, I don't have those as it wasn't a issue I followed closely to have bookmarked etc. IIRC, there have been instances of various treasurers etc that have embezzled money to help fund their gambling addiction. Thousands and tens of thousands of dollars. Stuff like that. They also mentioned compulsive gambling has increased (there is a very small fraction of the money collected to combat anticipated increases).

There will always be a certain number of people that are going to go to the extreme no matter what you try to do to prevent it, but it seems to be human nature that the easier you make it for someone to do something, the more likely they are to do it (crimes of opportunity). And the opposite seems to hold true. The harder you make it, the less likely most are going to do it. Why do we put locks on our doors, alarm systems on our homes, businesses and cars? To make it less likely that our stuff will be taken. Granted the thief may just move on to the next target that hasn't taken those steps (back to crimes of opportunity).

[Easy180]

Probably because the majority of people don't care much about the issue of alcohol, or even drink. I seldom drink anything stronger than 3.2 beer.

Is that why there are liquor stores all over the place?

[okclee]

Why can't parents bring their child into a liquor store or into a bar area? Like that roped off area at a restaurant bar really needs to be there?

Another moronic law!

I thought Okies were all about having less government and more individual freedoms?

[kevinpate]

... I thought Okies were all about having less government and more individual freedoms?

Nope. It's all about having as little government as deemed mandatory to have the masses conform their personal freedom levels to the conduct deemed acceptable to the majority. Sheeesh, where ya been, under a rock or something?

You dinna honestly equate things like fear of camel noses under tents and can't do X on Sunday and no weak beer alcohol sales after 2 am etc. etc. etc. with limited government? On control of personal choice, there is scant difference in the political philosophies except where reproduction, or not, is involved.

[bluedogok]

The 2:00 AM beer law isn't that old, it went into effect in the late 80's or early 90's. When I worked at Skaggs in Bethany there was no restriction on when you could buy beer, of course beer was also 18 at the time.

[icecold]

I went to Texas over the holidays to my parents. The convinence store down the road had about 20 bottles of wine for sale of the local winerys wines. Just absurd to think that a local winerys business could be increased. Then later that day I had to go Walgreens, where they had a superb selection of Yellowtail and about 5 other brands of $10 wine and less. There were drunks everywhere. Those stores were complete chaos with the homeless and criminals just roaming up and down the aisles causing scenes. It was horrible, do not know how my parents live there.

The above was obviously sarcasm. I did pick up a bottle at the convinence store bc I wanted to try the local wine. I went with my mom to a Kroger Signature store later that afternoon and did grocery shopping, picked up a couple 6ers of cold beer, non 3.2 which was nice. We left Kroger and in the same shopping center went to a liquor store to buy a couple bottles of wine. The liquor store, about a pitching wedge away from Kroger, was packed. Lots of people in the wine aisle at Kroger as well. (I didnt go down that aisle bc it was about 4 feet deep under red wine thanks to all the 5 year olds). Point being, people are going to buy alcohol no matter what so it would be nice to be able to have to freedom to decide where I want to purchase the product from and not be forced to go to a "liquor" store.

--Pet peeve---the fact that a liquor store can sell high point beer but it cant be cold. Laughable. Fine, instead of a cold beer I guess I will just buy a couple of pocket shots and pour it in my sonic drink. Give me a break.

[Kerry]

--Pet peeve---the fact that a liquor store can sell high point beer but it cant be cold. Laughable. Fine, instead of a cold beer I guess I will just buy a couple of pocket shots and pour it in my sonic drink. Give me a break.

I guess it is the alcohol equivalent to a 5 days waiting period for a gun. Both waiting times are considered a 'cooling-off' period. Maybe the NRA can comeout with a sticker like on the Coors bottles that let you know when you have cooled off enough.

[Jethrol]

Jethrol:

...there has been increases in gambling addiction and the associated crimes that stem from it.

Do you have any data to back up this claim?

I'm skeptical because I have not see studies of this and statistics get mis-intrepreted by the media ALL THE TIME.

As a hypothetical example, one person on the radio will say, "In talking with someone at Gamblers Anonymous, they said they're seeing more people in their meetings than normal since the lottery was passed. Therefore the rates of gambling addiction must be rising due to lottery and other types of gambling appearing in OK." Or some other ludicrous comments. Correlation does not equal causality and many other things may have gone into the increasing numbers at the GA meeting.....and let's not forget that people's perceptions are not hard science.

So please educate me if you do have information on your claim.

It IS a voluntary tax payed mainly by those people who can least afford it.

Really....where does this come from?

I know lots of people that are highly educated, employed with good jobs that regularly play the lottery and spend lots of money on it. During this last MegaMillions lottery, I personally spent more than I normally do but I have a good job and can easily afford it. I only spent $40 this time but when it's reached $150M in the past, I've been known to drop $100 on the lottery. I'm not super wealthy or anything like that but I'm far from being classified as poor.

It's popular for people to say it's a voluntary tax on the poor but most people that say this have NO data to back it up and totally minimize the impact of employed people playing. My experience has been when someone says this and you drill down into why they're saying it, it's their belief and/or experience ONLY. They don't have any data to support it.

Have to remember, as originally proposed by then Senator Brad Henry, the Lottery was supposed to bring in $500M/year and according to the recent Lottery commercials, it has only brought in just over $350M TOTAL in the 5 years it has been around (their website shows $369M). Even during the vote, they had lowered the projections to $350M/year.

Wait....so what are you trying to argue? That the lottery is a failure because it didn't bring in $500 mil and ONLY brought in $350M+? Uh...$350M is better than a poke in the eye....a damned site better.

[Jethrol]

I guess it is the alcohol equivalent to a 5 days waiting period for a gun. Both waiting times are considered a 'cooling-off' period. Maybe the NRA can comeout with a sticker like on the Coors bottles that let you know when you have cooled off enough.

Cooling off period? Oh man....see that's how silly our laws are. I mean has anyone EVER bought strong beer and not drank it because it took too long to get it cold? Please....this never happens.

Get a bucket add ice + water + salt = cold beer in about 5 mins.

[ljbab728]

Cooling off period? Oh man....see that's how silly our laws are. I mean has anyone EVER bought strong beer and not drank it because it took too long to get it cold? Please....this never happens.

Get a bucket add ice + water + salt = cold beer in about 5 mins.

I guess you could say the same thing about ice cream if it wasn't being sold in stores ready to eat. Just go to the store and buy the ingredients and freeze your own. It only takes a short time longer so why complain if it wasn't being sold in the store?
It's about convenience not about being prevented from drinking strong beer.

[Larry OKC]

Do you have any data to back up this claim?

As i said, i don't have the aticles bookmarked etc because it wasn't an issue I followed that closely but have read numerous articles in the Oklahoman that have stated it. Now if they mis-resreprested it or not, I don't know.

Really....where does this come from?

No doubt about it that people of all education levels and income levels gamble. When it comes to Lottery type games, lower income people have a tendency to spend not only any disposable income but non-disposable income (rent/food/car payments etc). Again, I don't have links, so take it for what it is worth.
On the flip side, do you have any data that supports your position?

Wait....so what are you trying to argue? That the lottery is a failure because it didn't bring in $500 mil and ONLY brought in $350M+? Uh...$350M is better than a poke in the eye....a damned site better.

You missed something there, it is a failure because at this point it was supposed to have brought in $2.5 BILLION ($500M/year) and it has only brought in the $369 million.

It was a failure because even though it was supposed to have been in a "lock box" and the legislature couldn't cut funding, they found ways to essentially pick the lock. Instead of it being "supplemental funding", it gets funneled through the School Funding Formula and anticipated revenues are appropriated. then when it fails to reach projections (after the schools have already made their budgets and spent the money half way through the school year), what was supposed to have been supplemental is now considered a shortage. Think every year the State School Superintendent has gone back to the Legislature and requested that they make additional appropriations to make up for the "shortfall".

[betts]

Here's something I hadn't thought of, from a Tulsa news story, regarding small downtown groceries:

"In any other city that you go to, these little grocery stores, they're selling wine. Because they can't make just make it selling food, because they're so small," Snyder said.

http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_n...y-stores-legal

[NickFiggins]

Sorry but more likely than a change in liquor laws is a legislation to ban stem-cell research. I heard this from one of the OKC Chamber's lobbyist. I ran a successful legislative campaign this cycle so I am very aware of the way the new kids i.e. Shortey and Breechen will act. As far as the stem cell ban, if it comes up the Democratic caucus will abstain just to prove how the chamber will go out of their way during election times to defeat democrats, so no reason to prop up the chamber. So hey right thinkin merican's > billions of dollars in health care research. A bold new Oklahoma indeed under Governor Fallin!

[Bunty]

Banning tax dollars for embryonic stem cell research will discourage that research in Oklahoma. Banning any embryonic stem cell research will make Oklahoma look like it's retreating to the Dark Ages. Whether it's in alcohol laws or freedom to conduct scientific research, I'm all for Oklahoma making advancements in its laws, so it can join up with the more civilized states in these United States.

[TheTravellers]

Banning tax dollars for embryonic stem cell research will discourage that research in Oklahoma. Banning any embryonic stem cell research will make Oklahoma look like it's retreating to the Dark Ages. Whether it's in alcohol laws or freedom to conduct scientific research, I'm all for Oklahoma making advancements in its laws, so it can join up with the more civilized states in these United States.

Thanks, Bunty, for posting that, you're brave. And along with any companies that would've been either doing embryonic stem-cell research or would've located here to do it, jobs will go to those other, friendlier climates.

[dankrutka]

The Republican controlled government will move or scare away lots of jobs from Oklahoma through their social conservative policies. Their corporate tax breaks won't overcome their social agenda. Just watch...

[onthestrip]

Sorry but more likely than a change in liquor laws is a legislation to ban stem-cell research. I heard this from one of the OKC Chamber's lobbyist. I ran a successful legislative campaign this cycle so I am very aware of the way the new kids i.e. Shortey and Breechen will act. As far as the stem cell ban, if it comes up the Democratic caucus will abstain just to prove how the chamber will go out of their way during election times to defeat democrats, so no reason to prop up the chamber. So hey right thinkin merican's > billions of dollars in health care research. A bold new Oklahoma indeed under Governor Fallin!

Huh? I remember the Chamber being against the ban on embryonic stem cell research that was almost passed a while back. Either way, never a good idea to have laws on the books that can lock up doctors doing research for the benefit of living humans. Not the message you want to send to the medical research industry.

[BDP]

Their corporate tax breaks won't overcome their social agenda. Just watch...

If history is to be the example, we already know this to be true. Any tax break or incentive that we make can be matched. When incentives are equalized companies will go for the markets providing a better quality of life and inclusive political atmosphere that is most attractive to the human resources they want to recruit.

We prove it everyday that companies often do not make these decisions on cost of doing business alone. If that were the case, we would have attracted many more corporate headquarters already.

On the surface it's hard to imagine that not being able to buy cold beer, criminalizing scientific research using embryos that are to be discarded, or the requirement of the government that a device be inserted into a woman's ****** as a prerequisite for a legal procedure would have any bearing on whether a technology development company would want to headquarter its business here or not, especially when our costs or so relatively low. But the decision to relocate is also a decision by the decision makers of where they are going to live and the reality is that many people hear the option of living here and think "no way!", in large part because of the image that it is socially intolerant and institutionally illiberal. These things are not only examples of government dictating personal conduct, but also reinforce an unfavorable image that has frankly been our Achilles heel for decades.

I think if some of this was the result of some rouge legislators using political leverage, it may go overlooked by prospective companies. Unfortunately, it is a very widespread movement that is widely supported and now has no checks to balance even its most far reaching attempts to institutionally control the conduct of Oklahoma citizens.

[Bunty]

The Republican controlled government will move or scare away lots of jobs from Oklahoma through their social conservative policies. Their corporate tax breaks won't overcome their social agenda. Just watch...

Well, hopefully, there are enough supposedly enlightened Republicans, such as State Sen. Jim Hallagan, former president of OSU, who will help take the lead to keep from happening what you describe.

[soonerguru]

Sorry but more likely than a change in liquor laws is a legislation to ban stem-cell research. I heard this from one of the OKC Chamber's lobbyist. I ran a successful legislative campaign this cycle so I am very aware of the way the new kids i.e. Shortey and Breechen will act. As far as the stem cell ban, if it comes up the Democratic caucus will abstain just to prove how the chamber will go out of their way during election times to defeat democrats, so no reason to prop up the chamber. So hey right thinkin merican's > billions of dollars in health care research. A bold new Oklahoma indeed under Governor Fallin!

This dumb ho said today she cares about creating jobs, but she'll sign every nutcase right-wing POS legislation that crosses her desk. I can't believe she's such a B-TCH she couldn't even be bothered to comment on or offer condolences to the congresswoman who was shot in Arizona, who served as her colleague in the House. God help Oklahoma, it's going to get bad. They'll ban stem cell research as a start and then she will sign every nutty bill the wingers send her. This is the kind of thing that could actually negatively impact OKC's development.

[soonerguru]

Well, hopefully, there are enough supposedly enlightened Republicans, such as State Sen. Jim Hallagan, former president of OSU, who will help take the lead to keep from happening what you describe.

Wish it were so, but it's not. Oklahoma is getting ready to reap what it has sewn: the first all-Republican government in state history. The Dems here aren't much better.

[RealJimbo]

This dumb ho said today she cares about creating jobs, but she'll sign every nutcase right-wing POS legislation that crosses her desk. I can't believe she's such a B-TCH she wouldn't even comment on the congresswoman who was shot in Arizona. God help Oklahoma, it's going to get bad. They'll ban stem cell research as a start and then she will sign every nutty bill the wingers send her. This is the kind of thing that could actually negatively impact OKC's development.

Guru? Somebody p*ss in your Wheaties? You sound pretty crazy in your comment. Your name-calling is un-called-for and makes you an embarrassment to the usual civility of this category. Governor Fallin deserves some respect. You are officially on my "ignore" list.

[soonerguru]

Guru? Somebody p*ss in your Wheaties? You sound pretty crazy in your comment. Your name-calling is un-called-for and makes you an embarrassment to the usual civility of this category. Governor Fallin deserves some respect. You are officially on my "ignore" list.

Sorry, I don't have high hopes for Governor Fallin. If you're cool with banning stem cells and the other parade of crazy right-wing legislation we're about to get -- and that she will sign -- good for you. I know a lot of people who work in her inner circle and let me tell you, some of them are concerned with her views as well.

I'm just furious that she wouldn't even take the time to issue a press statement after one of her colleagues was gunned down in an assassination attempt. Perhaps you were at her pray-in this morning but I'm not a fan of Fallin's -- at all. She has no class.

[ljbab728]

Sorry, I don't have high hopes for Governor Fallin. If you're cool with banning stem cells and the other parade of crazy right-wing legislation we're about to get -- and that she will sign -- good for you. I know a lot of people who work in her inner circle and let me tell you, some of them are concerned with her views as well.

I'm just furious that she wouldn't even take the time to issue a press statement after one of her colleagues was gunned down in an assassination attempt. Perhaps you were at her pray-in this morning but I'm not a fan of Fallin's -- at all. She has no class.

guru, I'm no fan of Fallin but I did see a televsion interview she gave about the assassination attempt and she was very clear about how upset and disturbed she was about it.