Edge @ Midtown

[Urbanized]

The idea that there would be some sort of saturation in residential demand reminds me of a conversation I had more than 20 years ago with a partner of a then-new restaurant in Bricktown. I think his place was perhaps the 3rd or 4th place built, and had a nice buzz. I mentioned to him that it was exciting to see cool places like his landing downtown, and he said something to the effect that he hoped not too many places would open after his, because he was afraid they would just be carving up thinner and thinner slices of the same pie. History has proven otherwise, and the end STILL doesn't seem to be in sight for market demand for dining and entertainment in the center city. It has become obvious at this point that we are simply baking a bigger pie.

I have heard people express concern about the emergence of other districts and entertainment options downtown, and have heard nascent districts lead their marketing/PR efforts by positioning themselves as an "alternative to Bricktown," etc., before realizing that we really weren't competing with each other. In fact the more that one downtown district thrives, the more the others do. Bricktown as an example is perhaps consistently the busiest it has ever been, despite the emergence of great new entertainment options in other districts.

There was a study done by (IIRC) Urban Renewal circa 1999-2000 (and then promptly forgotten) that showed a minimum immediate demand for 6K or 7K housing units downtown. Meaning, that AT A MINIMUM downtown could support that many units before saturation...FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. That is before almost all of the amenities we think of today were built, and at a time when the new urban living trend had not really caught on in most of the country, much less here. I think downtown is far, FAR from saturation. Barring unforeseen economic crisis, I think we could build downtown housing at our current pace for a long, long time without reaching saturation. I do agree that it could eventually spell trouble for suburban multifamily, especially older properties.

[DoctorTaco]

As always, I like your perspective Urbanized.

[Urbanized]

Thanks, being old helps...

[Teo9969]

Paying an extra $400/month in rent to save on car/gas/insurance expenses and, far more importantly for the average person spending $800+ on rent, to save hours outside of the car means that downtown specifically has a long long way to go before it's saturated.

I used to drive 20 minutes to school every single day my first 3 years of college (2006 - 2009). Now when someone says "hey, come to my house" and they live 20 minutes away I'm like "BBBLLLAAAHHH". And that's just living at NW Expressway & Classen. I honestly don't think I'd go to the Plaza or Uptown very often if I lived downtown…but I sure as hell would have very little interest in going to places like Red Rock on the lake or Fox and Hound on memorial.

The reasons neighborhoods like Crown Heights, MP and HH, Gatewood are all doing so well is because it's the happy medium for Suburban and Urban living. If you live on 38th and Shartel, you have a nice house, yard, space, etc. But you also don't have to drive 40 minutes to get to the Thunder game, or go shopping or hit up the best restaurants. There is also far more sense of community in the Interstate Loop than anywhere else I go. And the price-point makes a lot of sense as well. But make no mistake…a lot of people living in these areas would love to get even closer to downtown if it were economically feasible.

[HOT ROD]

I couldn't have said it better Urbanized. Oklahoma City has created a market downtown and has grown itself to even just now start to realize its potential. I'd say downtown still isn't back to what it was in the 40's/50's even with all of the current and announced/under-construction development. After this announced wave and MAPS 3 is built, we could probably finally begin to say downtown has returned back to that level, and THEN there is even still more growth that can be had.

I say, when most/all empty lots are filled between 13th and the river, Lincoln and Western/Classen. When downtown has more than 20m sq ft of office space (likely at what? 10m with OGE+1 built). When downtown has restaurant of all types. When downtown has retail options covered (including my 'wish' for a posh shopping district at Park Avenue). When those 7K original housing demand is achieved and probably doubled (likely current demand). When downtown has all price points covered and all urban living options available. THEN, I'd say downtown will have reached its steady state point of sustainability.

The good news is downtown has viable districts surrounding the CBD. Auto Alley, Bricktown, Arts District, Deep Deuce, Flatiron, Midtown, SoSA, Film Row, Farmer's Market, and C2S - all viable and at various stages of development/maturity. Once they all are at least 50% then we could really start to talk about having a sustainable downtown. I wouldn't say downtown was saturated until these districts are at 100% and every parcel in the CBD has a filled office tower.

That's to beauty of downtown and urban design imo, DENSITY accompanied by HEIGHT. You can pack so much into a small area, that it develops its own micro-economy and sustains itself. And, because it is urban, you can pack so many people/options into it and it just grows and grows. Versus, a suburban or exurban area where you start to get saturated quickly once roads/utilities pack up - regardless of the actual population served.

Very good times, indeed!

[Pete]

There was a study done by (IIRC) Urban Renewal circa 1999-2000 (and then promptly forgotten) that showed a minimum immediate demand for 6K or 7K housing units downtown. Meaning, that AT A MINIMUM downtown could support that many units before saturation...FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. That is before almost all of the amenities we think of today were built, and at a time when the new urban living trend had not really caught on in most of the country, much less here. I think downtown is far, FAR from saturation. Barring unforeseen economic crisis, I think we could build downtown housing at our current pace for a long, long time without reaching saturation. I do agree that it could eventually spell trouble for suburban multifamily, especially older properties.

And keep in mind, even with all the living units announced -- including both Clayco apartment towers -- we will still only be around 5,000 living units and a couple thousand of those are more than a year out.


The whole essence of quality urban life is critical mass. It's completely opposite from the suburbs where everyone is driving anyway, so it doesn't matter if something is right next door or 5 miles down the road. It's still a trip in the car, so might as well space out in the hope you are closer to your market and thus people will stop at your place first.

People in OKC only understand the old, suburban model and have a hard time grasping the concept of critical mass, where the more you add the more people want to be there.

[HOT ROD]

I think those times are changing before our eyes. OKC will have an urban model right before its eyes in just a couple of years with Clayco, Milhaus, the Met, Steelyard, Lift, and Civic Center all complete. Those will get eaten alive and there would still be demand for different price points - so people who commented earlier can also live in or closer to the CBD.

We're seeing the creating of a new urban city right before our eyes. Good times, really good times.

[bchris02]

People in OKC only understand the old, suburban model and have a hard time grasping the concept of critical mass, where the more you add the more people want to be there.

Completely agree. Urban neighborhoods are really like a snowball effect with amenities. I am amazed how just in the past couple of years since I've been in OKC, Midtown has transformed from a pretty underwhelming neighborhood to something that is really coming together. In my opinion, downtown OKC will have arrived when one can live comfortably without a car and/or never have to visit the burbs for essentials. I really think OKC can get there within five years at the current rate of development.

[HOT ROD]

totally agree Bchris.

And for sure downtown will not be saturated at that point, it would have just got some critical mass to be self-sustaining.

[Pete]

Completely agree. Urban neighborhoods are really like a snowball effect with amenities. I am amazed how just in the past couple of years since I've been in OKC, Midtown has transformed from a pretty underwhelming neighborhood to something that is really coming together. In my opinion, downtown OKC will have arrived when one can live comfortably without a car and/or never have to visit the burbs for essentials. I really think OKC can get there within five years at the current rate of development.

Once the streetcar gets rolling and we get a full-line grocery store (both will happen within 5 years) we'll be there.

In the meantime, there will be lots more infill and the ball is definitely rolling down hill.

[musg8411]

Paying an extra $400/month in rent to save on car/gas/insurance expenses and, far more importantly for the average person spending $800+ on rent, to save hours outside of the car means that downtown specifically has a long long way to go before it's saturated.

I used to drive 20 minutes to school every single day my first 3 years of college (2006 - 2009). Now when someone says "hey, come to my house" and they live 20 minutes away I'm like "BBBLLLAAAHHH". And that's just living at NW Expressway & Classen. I honestly don't think I'd go to the Plaza or Uptown very often if I lived downtown…but I sure as hell would have very little interest in going to places like Red Rock on the lake or Fox and Hound on memorial.

The reasons neighborhoods like Crown Heights, MP and HH, Gatewood are all doing so well is because it's the happy medium for Suburban and Urban living. If you live on 38th and Shartel, you have a nice house, yard, space, etc. But you also don't have to drive 40 minutes to get to the Thunder game, or go shopping or hit up the best restaurants. There is also far more sense of community in the Interstate Loop than anywhere else I go. And the price-point makes a lot of sense as well. But make no mistake…a lot of people living in these areas would love to get even closer to downtown if it were economically feasible.

From what I have heard, The Edge is charging $150/spot (believe this is per month) for parking and whether you have a car or not you are required to pay for at least one spot. I like this idea with the exception of having to pay if you do not own a car and do not need a parking spot. I have friends who paid a deposit and then cancelled because of this. I think it would be a great move to encourage public transportation by waiving this fee for those that opt to use public transportation and do not own a car.

[UnFrSaKn]

November 4 2014

https://www.flickr.com/photos/willia...7646826729664/

[Plutonic Panda]

Love these bike lanes!!

[josh]

And keep in mind, even with all the living units announced -- including both Clayco apartment towers -- we will still only be around 5,000 living units and a couple thousand of those are more than a year out.

5,000 existing units in your urban core or 5,000 proposed units?

[GDon]

From what I have heard, The Edge is charging $150/spot (believe this is per month) for parking and whether you have a car or not you are required to pay for at least one spot. I like this idea with the exception of having to pay if you do not own a car and do not need a parking spot. I have friends who paid a deposit and then cancelled because of this. I think it would be a great move to encourage public transportation by waiving this fee for those that opt to use public transportation and do not own a car.

Musg8411, this is Gary brooks at cornerstone Decelopment. I was surprisd by your post. I've never authorized anyone on my staff to charge for a parking space if they don't have a car. The price of a garage space is $75 and is quoted in the lease rate. If someone doesn't need the space, the rent is reduced by $75. I would appreciate you passing my email on to your friend if they're willing to contact me and discuss. Gary@cornerstonedelivers.com. Thanks for your post.

[Uptowner]

Completely agree. Urban neighborhoods are really like a snowball effect with amenities. I am amazed how just in the past couple of years since I've been in OKC, Midtown has transformed from a pretty underwhelming neighborhood to something that is really coming together. In my opinion, downtown OKC will have arrived when one can live comfortably without a car and/or never have to visit the burbs for essentials. I really think OKC can get there within five years at the current rate of development.

What about a cox solutions??

[musg8411]

Musg8411, this is Gary brooks at cornerstone Decelopment. I was surprisd by your post. I've never authorized anyone on my staff to charge for a parking space if they don't have a car. The price of a garage space is $75 and is quoted in the lease rate. If someone doesn't need the space, the rent is reduced by $75. I would appreciate you passing my email on to your friend if they're willing to contact me and discuss. Gary@cornerstonedelivers.com. Thanks for your post.

Thanks for clearing that up Gary. I will pass it along.

[soonerguru]

The Steelyard looks killer.

[Pete]

Gary told me today that they now have 87 of the apartments open and the biggest constraint is getting people moved in. They are trying to limit to 4 a day to allow for access to the docks and moving elevator.

They hope to get the next phase along 13th open in about a month and then the remainder along Dewey open before the end of the year.

He said leasing is very strong but they want to be methodical about getting people moved in since it's a very large complex.

[dcsooner]

Gary told me today that they now have 87 of the apartments open and the biggest constraint is getting people moved in. They are trying to limit to 4 a day to allow for access to the docks and moving elevator.

They hope to get the next phase along 13th open in about a month and then the remainder along Dewey open before the end of the year.

He said leasing is very strong but they way to be methodical about getting people moved in since it's a very large complex.

That is very good news. This project and the pending Steelyard are comparable to anything in large east coast cities, VERY well done.

[UnFrSaKn]

I was having trouble uploading this and didn't get to post it.

[J. Pitman]

Anyone know what the dog related business is going to be called? Is it a dog wash or boutique? Tough to tell from the window decals.

[Pete]

Anyone know what the dog related business is going to be called? Is it a dog wash or boutique? Tough to tell from the window decals.

It's just a concept of what they hope to see happen in that space.

There has been no lease signed as of yet (other than Organic Squeeze).

[okclee]

I hope they find a better use for the space other than dog/pet retail.

[Pete]

There is really no parking for the retail space so they are targeting a use that would be a service primarily to their residents.