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Thread: Cox Center

  1. Default Re: Cox Center

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    To clarify a few things:

    None of the Alliance meetings, negotiations, documents or anything else are subject to open meetings and records laws. They don't publish minutes and the information they share is completely at their own discretion and is selective. Prior to establishing the Alliance, everything regarding the matters they now handle was subject to open meetings and records laws.

    And long before the Alliance was formed, OCURA published its minutes and their meetings were open. In fact, I have minutes that date back as far as 2006 (the Alliance was formed in 2011) that were provided upon request and they specifically state the group was operating under the OK Open Meetings Law and list attendees that include reporters.
    I should have been more clear. Sorry. OCURA is now more transparent than it has ever been, and that is thanks to The Alliance. Ask anyone who has followed them closely or covered them in the media over the past couple of decades. Seriously. For starters, yes, you could/can get minutes and agendas from pre-Alliance days via requests, and always could. But they were not routinely published online until The Alliance began to manage OCURA under agreement with the City. Now the meetings, agendas, packets and minutes are published like clockwork on The Alliance's website. You can find all of that here: https://www.theallianceokc.org/2018-meetings

    On the same page you can find schedules, agendas and minutes for The Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust and the Oklahoma Port Authority.

    Other problems that used to challenge the transparency of OCURA was a tendency to move meetings around to different locations and to not always have regular office hours. These were mostly due to small staff and resources, but obviously were not optimal. The Alliance has changed all of this.

    Regarding The Alliance itself, it is NOT a municipal agency but instead a professional management team contracted by Oklahoma City to manage the affairs of these other orgs and to become a one-stop shop for businesses looking to locate a presence in Oklahoma or invest. Their job is to sit down with these companies and figure out what is required to bring new investment and jobs to our city. Then to direct them to the proper mechanisms, which can include City incentives, state and even federal dollars. Instead of chasing around to a bunch of agencies which may or may not be on the same page, The Alliance streamlines the process and helps OKC move fast in securing economic development.

    But as a private organization The Alliance itself has fewer requirements than do the organizations it manages. By the way, other cities have very similar models. OKC's was in part modeled after one in Kansas City, if I recall correctly. Having recently been to Austin on a ULI trip one of my biggest takeaways was that Austin is desperate to get a similar org in place. In fact, it is probably the one and only thing about OKC of which Austin is jealous.

    Quote Originally Posted by d-usa View Post
    Nobody is really saying that the Alliance is doing anything shady...
    Unhhh...of course they are. It has been a recurring theme on this board for a long, long time and lately has been a dominant topic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by d-usa View Post
    ...I think the point is that there should be no reason for anybody to ever even have to worry about anybody doing anything shady due to FOI and Open Records laws. And having an organization that doesn't have to comply with these laws at the very least creates the impression that something 'could' be going on, but that impression could be mitigated by having open meetings, releasing records, etc.

    Sunshine Laws don't always exist to catch bad actors, they exist to show that bad actors didn't exist to begin with.
    I think that we can all agree that is a noble sentiment. But it ignores reality. Let me explain why: one of the first rule of negotiations is to not lay all of your cards on the table. Or put another way, the first person to name a price in a negotiation LOSES THE NEGOTIATION.

    There of course is a purist argument that we (OKC, the state of Oklahoma, whoever) should not use incentives at all, and to just let the market determine what happens. Frankly, I personally would prefer it this way... ...if everyone else did it too. Unilateral disarmament when it comes to incentives would be disastrous, ESPECIALLY for a city which historically struggles to be noticed. Incentives:

    • Allow OKC to attract businesses/jobs which might not otherwise locate here (Boeing, etc)
    • Encourage development in areas of the community where it is more challenging/expensive to develop or where you wish to concentrate employment for strategic purposes (downtown, health center) or where it might be difficult to attract interst at all (JFK neighborhood)
    • Secure retail in your community which might otherwise not locate here to begin with or instead locate in a metro municipality where sales tax would be siphoned off

    Think all of our competition isn't also playing the incentive game? You're dead wrong if so. I mentioned this in another thread a month or two ago, but OKC is providing COSTCO with about $3 million in conditional incentives, while Dallas - who arguable needs to use incentives less than almost any city in our region - gave COSTCO how much? Yep, $3 million.

    Even in our own state and our own metro, our neighbors are playing the game...AGAINST OKC. Norman, Edmond, Midwest City and more have incentives designed to lure business and development (and sales tax dollars) to their communities based on proximity to Oklahoma City. Considering pretty much all of our operational budget as a city is dependent upon sales tax revenue, we have to protect against this as if our lives depend on it. Because it sortof does.

    So again, unfortunately I am of the opinion that playing the incentives game is a fact of life. If you agree with this in principle, the next step is to decide how you are going to play the game. Whether this involves property or money is beside the fact. Both have value. If you are doing it and you don't want to get absolutely fleeced, having all of your potential resources and all of your methods on full display is only going to give the next company a road map for exactly what your thinking is, exactly how you operate, and exactly what you have to offer, to the dollar. And by the way, it also gives competing municipalities a road map to outbidding you.

    Also, by the way, many companies would simply refuse to come to the table at all if they were unable to negotiate under protections of NDAs and the ability to keep certain proprietary information absolutely private.

    So, THIS is why The Alliance was formed as an organization which can negotiate on behalf of the City while maintaining some level of discretion. I truly believe they are solid reasons, and despite what is being suggested these elements actually PROTECT the City's interests, its tax dollars, and its economic development opportunities. It's completely fair to keep giving this process scrutiny, but automatically jumping to the conclusion that the reasons are nefarious is a bad, bad idea and a total mis-read, in my opinion.

  2. #277
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    Default Re: Cox Center

    Urbanized, I for one am glad you bring clarity, insight and common sense to this board. I get tired of insinuations without specifics to back them up, or insight and balance. If people have knowledge of illegalities or unethical behavior, then absolutely they should shine light on it. Otherwise, if there is no basis but suspicion based on incomplete facts (or absence of facts), I think it is detremental to beat the drum of conspiricies, incompetence, and impropriety, no matter how subtley it is done. If one has a suspicion, then investigate first....really investigate...not just ask your friends. If credible evidence exists, then pursue it. But too many think 1+1=3.

  3. #278

    Default Re: Cox Center

    This is not a binary issue where either you have complete secrecy and economic development, or you have neither.

    There was a ton of economic development before the Alliance came along. In fact, the huge percentage of new businesses and retailers and developments never even talk to the city or the Alliance or ask for incentives.

    The idea that Costco or Boeing wouldn't come here without the Alliance and it's related secrecy is pure speculation.

    And when it comes to secrecy in government and spending hundreds of millions of tax dollars, the burden of proof is squarely on those asking for those things.

  4. #279

    Default Re: Cox Center

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This.

    while a appreciate the information that Urbanized is bringing on the issue and he is correct in a lot of his statement... Pete sums it up best with the fact that it is not a binary issue

  5. #280

    Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    The OKC Yard Dawgz, for the past few weeks or so, have been teasing that the team will return. Today, they changed their profile picture and it includes the caption "The Dawgz are Back". Has anyone heard anything more about this?? Attached is the link to their facebook page.

    https://www.facebook.com/OKCYardDawg...Vp8iaQ&__xts__[0]=68.ARDwggXqZwBJNFkcz-EcHW0MBg_SysNHLP4DfAHKtWeaFUguVVShoOKc_tYaipTUIWH5 gDqTKv55wFs7by4HJ7kfjFmbvczOwGeGkuTrNeBvWVWy15bigL HKjHDFkGdtLBrILuGO0C4lRUoJhTpXI-ADZ8QM0A3gyxusmVkfgzxM9Rp57WQk_Cd5U79mJePFUTfRcIO7 Mjce0_GmMpWUYDQoA7QVO18gOgM6GZtwsw&__tn__=kCH-R

  6. #281

    Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    would be great to have more entertainment options in the city.

    not everyone likes or can afford the Thunder and/or OU, diversity of entertainment is yet another initiative that OKC needs to adopt.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  7. #282

    Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    if done right a pedestrian mall would be great. Canal extension anyone?

  8. #283

    Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    not everyone likes or can afford the Thunder and/or OU, diversity of entertainment is yet another initiative that OKC needs to adopt.
    I've seen numerous people comment on the expense of Thunder tickets and I'm not sure if people are aware that you can get tickets for under $20 to most games as long it's not an elite opponent.

  9. Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    I think it shows, to an extent, the lack of knowledge on getting tix to these games on the cheap. There are many ticket exchange apps (Stubhub, ticketmaster) where you can get tickets electronically and sometimes up to and after tip off. Sometimes the sellers fire sale them during these times as well. Now you will most likely be in Loud City, or in OU case, the upper deck, but you will still be at the game.

    For instance, you can go the OU Army game for $44 total tomorrow thru Stubhub. Will probably be cheaper tomorrow too.

  10. Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    if done right a pedestrian mall would be great. Canal extension anyone?
    Would be neat but it would present some pretty significant engineering challenges. The canal would have to go under the BNSF viaduct, under Santa Fe Station, and under the streetcar line on EK Gaylord. I don't think it'd be very cost effective. I'd rather just see the grid restored or an at-grade pedestrian mall.

  11. #286

    Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    As soon as the new convention center is completed, the city will move quickly on plans for the Myriad/Cox Convention Center. This site has tremendous potential.

  12. #287

    Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    If by move quickly you mean demolish it and leave it barren for years awaiting the right deal, then yes, I believe that.

  13. #288

    Default Re: Cox Center

    I guess I always thought this is where the new arena will go in 10 years when CHK/Ford is out of date.

    Arenas will look much different in a few years. Less actual seats, more club and VIP seats. Loud City will be 1/2 the size it is now. More restaurants and food options. Also wouldn't be surprised to see some type of casino or a big club/restaurant/sports bar place for a sports book. Its just a matter of time before Oklahoma allows sports betting and the NBA and the city find a way to make it happen.

  14. Default Re: Cox Center

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCretro View Post
    I guess I always thought this is where the new arena will go in 10 years when CHK/Ford is out of date.

    Arenas will look much different in a few years. Less actual seats, more club and VIP seats. Loud City will be 1/2 the size it is now. More restaurants and food options. Also wouldn't be surprised to see some type of casino or a big club/restaurant/sports bar place for a sports book. Its just a matter of time before Oklahoma allows sports betting and the NBA and the city find a way to make it happen.
    I'm not really sure why everyone thinks CHK will be out of date that quickly. Look at the arena market...without a major change in how revenue is generated by NBA arenas (like adding luxury boxes in the 90s and 2000s), CHK is going to be a viable venue for 20-30 years or longer. It will obviously need to be updated and renovated over the years, but there is nothing going on in the foreseeable future that will make the shell of that building obsolete. At any rate, it will be obsolete well after the Cox site is likely developed.

  15. #290

    Default Re: Cox Center

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    I'm not really sure why everyone thinks CHK will be out of date that quickly. Look at the arena market...without a major change in how revenue is generated by NBA arenas (like adding luxury boxes in the 90s and 2000s), CHK is going to be a viable venue for 20-30 years or longer. It will obviously need to be updated and renovated over the years, but there is nothing going on in the foreseeable future that will make the shell of that building obsolete. At any rate, it will be obsolete well after the Cox site is likely developed.
    This.

    In the 90s and 2000s cities weren't building new arenas just for the hell of it. They had to do it because of the changing demands of the NBA. The Peake won't need to be replaced until the NBA has a requirement that it cannot be retrofitted to meet.

  16. #291

    Default Re: Cox Center

    I 100% agree.

    However there is another factor. If the powers that be determine that they want/need a new arena, they will use whatever justification necessary. Maybe even slip it as a MAPS project and prioritize it over other projects that the public thought were more important.

  17. #292

    Default Re: Cox Center

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnw View Post
    I 100% agree.

    However there is another factor. If the powers that be determine that they want/need a new arena, they will use whatever justification necessary. Maybe even slip it as a MAPS project and prioritize it over other projects that the public thought were more important.
    I think public opinion of MAPS as we know it is peaking, or has already peaked. I’m not sure another one would pass if it is only limited to big ticket items.

  18. #293

    Default Re: Myriad/Cox convention center

    Quote Originally Posted by ditm4567 View Post
    The OKC Yard Dawgz, for the past few weeks or so, have been teasing that the team will return. Today, they changed their profile picture and it includes the caption "The Dawgz are Back". Has anyone heard anything more about this?? Attached is the link to their facebook page.
    https://www.facebook.com/OKCYardDawgz/
    Lol, man I forgot about the Yard Dawgz. If they have $1 beer night I'm in.

  19. Default Re: Cox Center

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnw View Post
    I 100% agree.

    However there is another factor. If the powers that be determine that they want/need a new arena, they will use whatever justification necessary. Maybe even slip it as a MAPS project and prioritize it over other projects that the public thought were more important.
    There is no reason to "want/need" a new arena over renovating the current one unless it would greatly improve the bottom line for the team.

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