SandRidge Center & Commons

[Popsy]

Absolutely. Forcing Sandridge to save those buildings would be a great way to reward their expenditures in taking over an office tower that was about to join their neighbors in being empty. Sandridge could put plaques on each building noting that it is a monument to failed OKC businesses. There could even be a plaque noting that the state seal was stored there while the new capitol was being built. Should attract tourists from all over the country.

[Spartan]

Popsy, you might be interested in joining the Urban Renewal Authority board. Mail your resume to Citee Hawl. Don'ttown development is a dirty zero-sum game!

[Popsy]

Spartan, should I take it that you are a guidance counselor also? From all the ramblings you post in these forums, it seems you want to be numerous things. Seems that you claim to be a student however. Being a student is a good thing, but remember, it does not prepare you for the shock of entering the real world when you finish. I think I will pass on applying to the URA because it involves a lot of politics and politics is a lot dirtier than don'ttown (your spelling) development.

[Spartan]

Why don't you share with us your dreams and aspirations, Popsy?

[Popsy]

Sure thing Spar. In four words: Been there, done that. Achieved my major dreams and aspirations by the age of 45. Acquired enough real estate and other investments that have provided me with a six figure retirement income for the past 18 years. All dreams and aspirations now are minor in nature. I have made the most out of my retirement. Thank you.

[Oil Capital]

Isn't it actually the demolition of 5 buildings?

I like how the historic India Temple is referred to as the "111 Robert S. Kerr Building."

Why do you think it is the demolition of 5 buildings, rather than 4?

[Kerry]

Ditching the bad ones - what does that mean? Do you know what buildings they want to tear down? Why do we need to tear down these buildings? Do you know what is wrong with these buildings? Do you know that these buildings can't serve another purpose?

Do you know the history of these buildings? Did you realize that one of them, the KerMac building (which is ripe for loft conversion), was the building where Kerr McGee was founded in? KMG is no longer here but there legacy still is, for now. Did you realize another building was the home of the old Braniff Airlines corporation? That building is also ripe for loft conversion. Did you realize that one of the other buildings used to be the site of the state seal when they were in between the Guthrie state house and the new one on Lincoln? That building might be beyond saving sadly, but it needs to be considered more--that building is too important to just assess as a lost cause without a closer look.

The only building that I can honestly say demolition might be warranted is the old YWCA and the high-rise parking garage, but the site needs to remain in scale with the urban environment..we don't need to take any more chunks out of downtown's swiss cheese urban fabric.

Do you not know the history of the old YWCA building? How can you honestly say it is okay to go. Did you read any studies about it or know which people stayed there? Do you know what kind of condition it is in? Could there be another use for it?

[Steve]

Kerry, there really isn't anything left of the old YMCA - it was gutted, stripped and turned into a 1950s international style structure. What may make the argument moot on this building is I'm told it's hopelessly broken - critical beams were cracked by the 1995 Murrah bombing.

[Kerry]

Steve - I am not trying to save the old YMCA building. I am just pointing out how self-absorbed it is of Spartan to consider himself the arbiter of what should stay and what should go when he himself hasn't done any more research than anyone he questioning.

For myself, I am a property-rights guy. If SandRidge owns them and wants to tear them down then they should be able to do it. I don't have to like it and I can voice my concern, but at the end of the day, if someone wants to save these buildings then they need to pony up some money and buy them. Until then, all we can do is offer suggestions to anyone that might listen.

On a personal note – I do get kind of tired of architects, architect students, and architect wannabes thinking their creations are so important that we have to spend millions trying to save them. I develop complex software application security models but I don't think anything I worked on should be preserved at other people's expense. But that's just me.

[okcpulse]

I develop complex software application security models but I don't think anything I worked on should be preserved at other people's expense. But that's just me.

Do you? I'm in software security as well. At least from a coding perspective. I am in the middle of developing an NT account analysis application.

Just out of curiosity... what platform and what language do you use if you write code?

[Kerry]

Do you? I'm in software security as well. At least from a coding perspective. I am in the middle of developing an NT account analysis application.

Just out of curiosity... what platform and what language do you use if you write code?

I am actually an SAP Security Architect. I do very little coding. If I am involved with code it is just reading it to see what authorization checks are being performed in the programs. The code we use is ABAP (Advanced Business Application Programming).

I never really got into coding but I decided to start teach myself awhile back. I have also been teaching my two boys to program and giving them more guidance and opportunities than I received as a child. I have been using Small Basic to begin with.

On a side note - for those that want to try their hand at writing programs but don't have any idea how or where to begin try Small Basic. It was written for beginners and children and it is free from Microsoft.

Small Basic

[okcpulse]

I'll keep that in mind for my son, who is 2 and is already crazy about electronics.

I write C# code and use Visual Studio 2008. Didn't mean to get this off topic.

[Steve]

Um Kerry, if you're working for SAP, you should be warned there might be some folks out there still hurting from painful mainframe transitions! It may be safer to admit working for AIG.
(I kid, I kid! Well, maybe not totally...)
Anyway, you have an interesting question - should property owners be allowed to do with their buildings as they wish, or is there an overriding community interest that should be taken into consideration?

[Popsy]

Steve, I would like to share my opinion on that by asking you what percentage of the OKC population would look at it as an overriding community interest for it to be a valid overriding community interest. It seems to me that there are only a small percentage of OKC residents that like to be huggers of old buildings. Like Kerry mentioned earlier if you want to save a building create a REIT amongst other building huggers and raise enough money to buy that building instead of taking the socialist route of having other people pay for your desires.

[Kerry]

Um Kerry, if you're working for SAP, you should be warned there might be some folks out there still hurting from painful mainframe transitions! It may be safer to admit working for AIG.
(I kid, I kid! Well, maybe not totally...)
Anyway, you have an interesting question - should property owners be allowed to do with their buildings as they wish, or is there an overriding community interest that should be taken into consideration?

That is no joke about SAP (BTW - I work for myself, not SAP). I actually don't work on the implementation side. I work on the "clean up the mess after the implementation" side. The bottom line is, if I am at your company it is because you already have huge problems. I make a good living just following Accenture and PWC around.

Now back to topic. Are there community interest concerns? Sure there are. Are they overriding? I don't think so. Companies might have a self imposed community responsibility but it only extends as far as companies are willing to allow it. Anadarko had no problem vacating the Kerr McGee building and putting it up for sale - zilch, nada, none. Companies that want to be considered 'pillars of the community' do so for their own reasons, and I thank them for their efforts. I am sure you can find thousands of companies in OKC that don't do anything for OKC other than pay taxes and that is okay too.

However, at the end of the day companies have to do what is in their best interest and I understand that. You can't be 'community responsibility' 24/7. At that point all we can do is make suggestion and offer alternative views with the understanding that we probably don't have all of the information available to us that the decision makers have (i.e. studies on which building can be saved).

[Spartan]

Kerry, I could attack you too, but I'm just going to mention that I find it highly unlikely that you have ever had classes on anything to do with urban planning, urban design, architecture, architectural history, etc etc.. unless it was from the University of Phoenix Online or Wikiversity. I believe strongly, and it is a common understanding among those who have taken classes on these things, that there is a public interest in a positive cityscape.

The reality that I don't think many developers realize, or planners who are in the pockets of these developers, is that we the people have to live amongst the creations of these developers. Private development, while the responsibility of the private sector, still defines the public element, so the private sector has a responsibility to churn out projects that benefit the public good. Back in the day developers used to take pride in their buildings and they truly were community builders, but today that clearly isn't so. Everything is disposable, so now we have to resort to minimum requirements to get by.

A municipal planning commission has the right to intervene in development and withhold a construction permit until all of the community's basic needs are satisfied and the project can be proven to be "community building" rather than "community harming." If people in Moore can prevent Incahoots from opening up a club in the middle of Moore, then people in Oklahoma City can require solid urban planning and quality design from developers.

Development will happen. It's not like if the city stopped issuing permits for crappy projects that all of a sudden nothing would ever happen. The only thing that would ever happen from the city no longer permitting crappy projects is that everyone's lives benefit from OKC becoming a better urban environment. The people of OKC are who development will ultimately affect, and we have a right to look out for that huge vested public interest. So in that regard you can take your property rights fundamentalist principles bull**** and shove it, you know where.

[Spartan]

Oh to hell with it.. I suppose it's 100% spot-on to accuse me of being a building-hugger lol.

[Kerry]

Spartan - To my knowledge I am the only one here that had a business card that had the words City Planner on it. I think you are greatly mistaken about the role of a city planner. City planners are not developers and planning commissions don't get to decide willy-nilly about what they will approve or not approve. A development could be the ugliest piece of crap but if meets design standards and zoning requirments it gets approved. The only group that has authority over design would be if the lot is subject to an ARC commettee.

The city has a set of design standards and 95% of what city planner does is review those development plans to ensure they meet requirements. A city planner is not a real-estate developer that works for the city. Once you get out of school and start working as a city planner don't be surprised if you spend a lot of your time reviewing applications for putting up signs.

Take the new boulevard in OKC as an example. When the plans for that are drawn up it will not be a city planner doing that. It will be someone at an engineering company contracted by the city. At most, a city planner will check to make sure the sidewalks are the correct width, parking spaces are the correct dimension, and landscaping is properly spaced.

[Spartan]

I think we have a misunderstanding here..

A Downtown ontheRange: Cheapo urban design example
I'm actually all for the ugliest pieces of crap that just conform to the minimum urban planning standards. This is what I look for: Building, sidewalk, street. That's it.

Are we talking about the right of SandRidge to do whatever the hell they want or the specific case here? Because the SandRidge site IS subject to aesthetic requirements, and that's not even a debating point. It's downtown, there are downtown design requirements.

There is also a city ordinance requiring buildings come right up to the sidewalk. This city ordinance should prevent SandRidge from being able to tear down buildings that come right up to the sidewalk for plazas and open black hole space.

[Kerry]

I think we have a misunderstanding here..

A Downtown ontheRange: Cheapo urban design example
I'm actually all for the ugliest pieces of crap that just conform to the minimum urban planning standards. This is what I look for: Building, sidewalk, street. That's it.

Are we talking about the right of SandRidge to do whatever the hell they want or the specific case here? Because the SandRidge site IS subject to aesthetic requirements, and that's not even a debating point. It's downtown, there are downtown design requirements.

There is also a city ordinance requiring buildings come right up to the sidewalk. This city ordinance should prevent SandRidge from being able to tear down buildings that come right up to the sidewalk for plazas and open black hole space.

I think we ended up talking past each other and lost track of where we were going. I do that sometimes.

Ok, so here is my take on the Sandridge deal. Those building 100% belong to Sandridge. If they are governed by a set of city ordinances or design standards then whatever they do with them must conform to those standards. I am nearly 100% rule oriented, which is probably what made me a good city planner (at least according to my annual reviews from my manager). If you don't like a rule you don't ignore it, you work to get it changed.

I know downtown OKC requires buildings to be moved out to the sidewalk and I like that. If Sandridge proposes something different I would be against that, but I haven't seen their plan yet. Do I hope they do something that will increase the urban feel of downtown OKC? Sure I do 100%, but if they don't then my only recourse is to be disappointed. That is pretty much where my influence ends because Sandridge didn't grant me anymore control over them than that.

[Spartan]

Right, I was taking for granted that you knew specifics of what they're doing.

I believe the plan is to demolish the KerMac and Braniff buildings for an open plaza space, which isn't going to fly. I have only seen what Steve's reported though.

[jbrown84]

I thought they were keeping the Braniff (NW corner) but demolishing the YMCA/KerMac building on the SW corner and the India Temple on the SE corner.

I don't see why they need a plaza entrance from Robinson. There is already a plaza facing Kerr Park and there will be expanded visibility to Broadway. Do they really need an entire block of open plaza from Broadway to Robinson??

[Popsy]

Spartan, you seem to state factually that Sandridge's plaza is not going to fly and I am wondering where you got your fact. Did you apply aeronautical principles to the plaza. I also noticed in another post that you are very proud of the classes you are taking or have taken in the past. I wish I could remember the old adage that stated something to the effect that doers do and failures teach. If that is true does it bother you that you are being taught by failures?

[DelCamino]

Spartan - To my knowledge I am the only one here that had a business card that had the words City Planner on it. I think you are greatly mistaken about the role of a city planner. City planners are not developers and planning commissions don't get to decide willy-nilly about what they will approve or not approve. A development could be the ugliest piece of crap but if meets design standards and zoning requirments it gets approved. The only group that has authority over design would be if the lot is subject to an ARC commettee.

The city has a set of design standards and 95% of what city planner does is review those development plans to ensure they meet requirements. A city planner is not a real-estate developer that works for the city. Once you get out of school and start working as a city planner don't be surprised if you spend a lot of your time reviewing applications for putting up signs.

Take the new boulevard in OKC as an example. When the plans for that are drawn up it will not be a city planner doing that. It will be someone at an engineering company contracted by the city. At most, a city planner will check to make sure the sidewalks are the correct width, parking spaces are the correct dimension, and landscaping is properly spaced.

Kerry: no, you're not the only one here who has had the title of City Planner on their biz cards. I know of several posters here who do so, including me.

While I agree that Spartan doesn't understand the reality of the Planner's role, or know the limits to what they can and can't do, or at least he doesn't seem to, they are much more than glorified paper pushers. Planners compose, draft and administer zoning regs and design codes to which the developers must then adhere. They also meet on a consistent basis with these developers, at least in this city, in order to find the best possible solution in getting a project completed. That takes lots of knowledge of the legal ramifications of their application of the municipal code.

Much more thought goes into that job than merely reviewing a set of plans.

[Spartan]

Spartan, you seem to state factually that Sandridge's plaza is not going to fly and I am wondering where you got your fact. Did you apply aeronautical principles to the plaza. I also noticed in another post that you are very proud of the classes you are taking or have taken in the past. I wish I could remember the old adage that stated something to the effect that doers do and failures teach. If that is true does it bother you that you are being taught by failures?

Popsy, riddle me this: The city ordinance requires development to have the buildings come right up to the sidewalk. SandRidge is proposing to demolish buildings that come right up to the street for the purpose of a lovely plaza. If you're the city planners assigned to review the file, and give an up or down recommendation based on the existing city codes, what is your recommendation going to be?

The Planning Commission will then act upon the recommendation. The only way it will pass is if they get a variance which is like saying, "Yes we know the city code is against this, but here's a special certificate to get you around that pesky city code." So the question isn't whether it will pass, but rather, whether it will be given a variance. This is completely aside from the planning lessons I have attempted in this thread. Whether you agree with me on what is good urban planning, the city code is more simple than that. It simply says development must come right up to the sidewalk, no exceptions.

By the way, why do you guys have business cards that say "city planner" on them? Seriously.. I know that "everyone has a business card" but it just sounds bad to say, as if you're soliciting "customers" for special favors with the City Planning Dept. My advice is to not brag about your business cards that say city planner on them.