Streetcar

[LocoAko]

I assumed the "B" line was (at least in part) focused on convention center attendees, many of whom will be there during the week rather than the weekend. Is it possible they'll change the "B" schedule once the new convention center opens?

[Laramie]

• The 4.9-mile D Line will traverse the central business district, linking Midtown and Bricktown.
• Dubbed the B Line, the 2-mile Bricktown loop will link Bricktown and the convention center district.

Plans are for the vast majority of service hours to the devoted to the D Line. Streetcars are to run from 6 a.m. to midnight Monday through Thursday and 6 a.m. to 2 a.m. Friday and Saturday.

On the B Line, regular service will be 6 a.m. to 2 a.m. Friday and Saturday.

Does anyone want to address the B Line concern LocoAko addressed?

[Anonymous.]

After thinking on it and discussing with others. I am still unhappy with the proposed fare schedule. I think there will be a majorly missed opportunity here for first year of implementation.

[Urban Pioneer]

After thinking on it and discussing with others. I am still unhappy with the proposed fare schedule. I think there will be a majorly missed opportunity here for first year of implementation.

Which part? Just curious. I'd like to stress that our committee doesn't control this aspect of the project. If it were up top me, we would follow Kansas City's model and avoid fares entirely.

However, several of us do regularly talk to EMBARK about what they are proposing. I just told the director this past Tuesday that I think there should be an annual pass for employers to buy for their employees.

Until we resolve Sunday Service inequity between the streetcar and the bus system or incorporate the streetcar into the BID, that part of the schedule will be a mangled opportunity.

[Pryor Tiger]

UP,

If you think it is a good idea, could we propose free fare service offered to convention visitors? I'm not sure how that would work but it would make sense to me for all the economic impact they can have to ensure they have nothing holding them back from using the streetcar.

Also, what are the chances that they do clear up the Sunday service issue prior to the rollout? In my opinion we need to find a solution to fund both bus and streetcar Sunday service as our city has reached a point where this is necessary imo.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^
There is a lot of behind-the-scenes effort regarding both Sunday service and free (possibly sponsored) fares, at the very least for an introductory period. BID is being discussed as a potential (partial...) funding method. The problem is that for either item the BID assessment would see a pretty dramatic uptick. In the case of certain property owners the increase would be pretty sizeable. Don’t expect the solution to come from within EMBARK though; they are pretty limited on options and are pretty dug in on these topics.

[Anonymous.]

Which part? Just curious. I'd like to stress that our committee doesn't control this aspect of the project. If it were up top me, we would follow Kansas City's model and avoid fares entirely.

However, several of us do regularly talk to EMBARK about what they are proposing. I just told the director this past Tuesday that I think there should be an annual pass for employers to buy for their employees.

Until we resolve Sunday Service inequity between the streetcar and the bus system or incorporate the streetcar into the BID, that part of the schedule will be a mangled opportunity.

I agree with your post about an annual pass. Many employers downtown pay over $100 per month for parking per employee. This is part of the employee's compensation essentially, so an alternative that is cheaper for the employer would likely be sought after. Although, I guess that would mean the city is reducing its parking income if the employee parks in a city-owned garage.

I think we should have looked into moving the excess budget funds into some type of operation fund for the streetcar, I feel this would have still been in-line with the MAPS guidelines since the funds would be directly used on the streetcar operation. We could have gotten at least a full year of free ridership, which would have removed the barrier for entry entirely for people not wanting to waste money on trying it out. BEcause I truly think once people use the streetcar, they will see its value. But that initial step is going to be tough going with the proposed fare schedule.

To be frank, I think the proposed fares are too high. $1 for an hour is basically a worthless option. For someone who is in Bricktown and wants to go to Midtown, they will very likely be at their destination for more than one hour. Thus they will need to either buy a second $1 fare for the trip back or go with the $3 day pass. And remember you have to account for groupings of more than 1 person. I don't know about you, but when I am around Midtown and Bricktown, there is rarely individual people - but a lot of couples and groups of 3-5 people everywhere. The cost for all the people in a group of 5 to take the streetcar from Bricktown to Midtown is now $5 to and $5 back. You can take an Uber/Lyft from Bricktown to Midtown for $6.30 (minimum Uber fare since distance is so short). And this will be in a private car that picks you up at your exact location and drops you off at your exact destination with no time restraints on stopping along the route.

You need to activate the younger generations to use the streetcar, the same generations that have been the main customer base for rideshare companies.

[Urbanized]

You won't see MAPS funds used for operations because the ballot ordinance specified the money was to be spent on capital projects. It would be illegal to use those funds for operational expenses.

[Urban Pioneer]

I agree with your post about an annual pass. Many employers downtown pay over $100 per month for parking per employee. This is part of the employee's compensation essentially, so an alternative that is cheaper for the employer would likely be sought after. Although, I guess that would mean the city is reducing its parking income if the employee parks in a city-owned garage.

I think we should have looked into moving the excess budget funds into some type of operation fund for the streetcar, I feel this would have still been in-line with the MAPS guidelines since the funds would be directly used on the streetcar operation. We could have gotten at least a full year of free ridership, which would have removed the barrier for entry entirely for people not wanting to waste money on trying it out. BEcause I truly think once people use the streetcar, they will see its value. But that initial step is going to be tough going with the proposed fare schedule.

To be frank, I think the proposed fares are too high. $1 for an hour is basically a worthless option. For someone who is in Bricktown and wants to go to Midtown, they will very likely be at their destination for more than one hour. Thus they will need to either buy a second $1 fare for the trip back or go with the $3 day pass. And remember you have to account for groupings of more than 1 person. I don't know about you, but when I am around Midtown and Bricktown, there is rarely individual people - but a lot of couples and groups of 3-5 people everywhere. The cost for all the people in a group of 5 to take the streetcar from Bricktown to Midtown is now $5 to and $5 back. You can take an Uber/Lyft from Bricktown to Midtown for $6.30 (minimum Uber fare since distance is so short). And this will be in a private car that picks you up at your exact location and drops you off at your exact destination with no time restraints on stopping along the route.

You need to activate the younger generations to use the streetcar, the same generations that have been the main customer base for rideshare companies.

Great comments. I don't disagree with any of them. Here are few sentiments that I have about all of this.

One is that EMBARK has proceeded with the typical City Manager approach to hard decisions... Hire a consultant and blame them if it doesn't work out. Kansas City's success is not a driving factor in this decision making.

Another huge part of this that you probably won't see in writing anywhere else is that this fare and operations process is being driven by ideological forces and/or the fear of staff members dealing with ideological forces.

1. The transit director is an awesome guy. He has very good intentions. But he was also head EMBARK's financial department before replacing Rick Cain. He fundamentally believes in equity-based value. That is that paying something, even if it is nominal, means that the service is valued by the participant. Essentially a low threshold barrier to "buy in".

2. Fiscal Hawks-Republican City Council Members- First and foremost being James Greiner of Ward 1 who believes that the free market should provide all public transit solutions. My guess from compiled offhand commentary by Greenwell is that he is lockstep with the Transit Director's point of view on these matters... also an accountant and expressing fiscal ideological faith in the "equity" argument.

I haven't watched enough City Council meetings to give you an official read on Stonecipher, Todd Stone, or Larry McAtee. My guess is that they trust the process and the consultant's/City Manager's recommendations.

3. Ed Shadid- Buses should have the same level of support as the streetcar. Expect a Title 9 fight and a lawsuit if the two modes aren't supported on an equal footing.

I'm not necessarily trying to throw anyone under the bus here... pardon the pun. My personal beliefs as the result of observations of other cities are contrary this ideology. I think this system should be free to use by the public and visitors. I think that the sheer economic return in tax revenue from enabling businesses better access and the more efficient use of land increasing density would far outweigh any nominal return we might see through fare collection. Plus there are major health, environmental, and social benefits to making the system as accessible as possible.

Ed and I aren't on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to bus transit either.

I think you have an exceptional group of people building this thing. They are extremely plugged into what other cities are doing and we are collectively trying to build it right. Unfortunately, the project is being handed off to a board who doesn't fully understand what they're getting. EMBARK also is not responsible for maximizing these broader socio-economic benefits that affect other aspects of our city and the potential revenues it could generate. Its main aim is to minimize the financial liability to its annual bottom line.

It fundamentally comes down to the City Council to fund streetcar operations properly short of the BID covering the cost. But the current council probably doesn't understand what the broader benefits are and the sheer potential financial and social return that come forthwith.

And keep in mind that all of this is enforced by essentially an honor system. It is easy to conclude that having fares simply creates a barrier that suppresses the ability of the system to perform. Even the rosiest projections for fare collection revenues are suspect.

Operating the streetcar system right requires thinking differently and that requires leadership. We don't possess that yet.- Jeff Bezdek

[TheTravellers]

^^^ Great post (even if it is a bit sad to read due to the way some people think), thanks, good to know the behind-the-scenes information!

[Urban Pioneer]

Thanks Travellers! Now is the time to be candid about this issue. None of this is set in stone yet. With education and public support perhaps the operational situation can change and the streetcar's impact more broadly felt.

On a cheerier note-

The time has come! Oklahoma City’s first modern streetcar is scheduled to leave Brookville, PA bound for Oklahoma City this Friday.

We anticipate it will be delivered to SW 7 and Hudson on Tuesday, February 13^th . Unfortunately, we are unable to give you an exact delivery time at this point, but we will provide updates to you on Tuesday morning.

You are welcome to come out and watch the streetcar transition from the back of the truck to the rail. Parking is limited and is available on a first-come, first-served basis at SW 7 and Hudson.

[Mott]

A very good post, it seems like OKC has finally learned how to build things, but we still don't do a good enough job of maintaining and managing public properties..

[stjohn]

The transit director is an awesome guy. He has very good intentions. But he was also head EMBARK's financial department before replacing Rick Cain. He fundamentally believes in equity-based value. That is that paying something, even if it is nominal, means that the service is valued by the participant. Essentially a low threshold barrier to "buy in".

This is a critical perspective, and I think this is so wrong. People ought to value something they've never used? Here's this great tool we spent a ton of money on, and even though no one targeted to use this phase of the streetcar currently uses public transit, we'll just expect them to naturally change their behavior and start spending money to do so, in addition to the car they already own, because, hey, they ought to value this?

Embracing public transit requires a big time behavioral change in OKC. We need to do everything possible to remove barriers to entry.

That mentality seems just so irresponsibly out of touch.

[Laramie]

This is a critical perspective, and I think this is so wrong. People ought to value something they've never used? Here's this great tool we spent a ton of money on, and even though no one targeted to use this phase of the streetcar currently uses public transit, we'll just expect them to naturally change their behavior and start spending money to do so, in addition to the car they already own, because, hey, they ought to value this?

Embracing public transit requires a big time behavioral change in OKC. We need to do everything possible to remove barriers to entry.

That mentality seems just so irresponsibly out of touch.

There are many things that we value that we never use because we know someone who benefits from it beside ourselves--think about it.

Just remember that the streetcar system which includes the routes will stimulate development along those lines; we've seen this in other cities like Portland, Seattle, Salt Lake City & Kansas City.

You don't want totally free ridership because our streetcar is designed as a shuttle that should benefit patrons in the core & tourists, more of a novelty than public transit on the 6.9 mile route that serves Downtown, Midtown & Bricktown. Hopefully, we'll extend this to the OU Health Science Center district.

You make it free, then you will have to address a previous concern with the Embark buses--where sometimes homeless stay on the buses nearly all day. You wouldn't want this with the streetcar especially since it will cater to tourists as well as a shuttle for patrons in those 3 areas.

[Laramie]

Expand the streetcar to the OU Health Sciences Center & the Meridian Hotel corridor should be a priority . There are a lot of conventions in that area (OUHSC) now with the 194 room Embassy Suites.



The Adventure District (Zoo & Hall of Fame Stadium) has the old KATY railroad line; could we get something running in that area--something vintage.

[Timshel]

our streetcar is designed as a shuttle that should benefit tourists, more of a novelty than public transit

This is my biggest fear with the streetcar and I hope that this is not how it is perceived by the "powers that be" and most local residents. If residents don't regularly use the streetcar in substantial numbers (which will hopefully happen more and more as housing, office, and retail development continues to grow along the streetcar's routes) I'm not sure how you can consider it a success or justify expansion. Though I suppose there is a chicken or the egg issue with encouraging local resident ridership and expansion into neighboring areas.

As someone who doesn't work downtown or in Midtown, this is also one of my biggest issues with the streetcar not operating on Sundays. I plan to make a point to use the streetcar as often as possible when not at work - but not being able to do so on Sundays severely limits by ability to ride the streetcar by not operating on one of the two days I'm most likely to be downtown - and I suspect there are quite a few others in this situation.

[d-usa]

The Adventure District (Zoo & Hall of Fame Stadium) has the old KATY railroad line; could we get something running in that area--something vintage.

If there is a way to transfer between the Streetcar and the KATY line at the Santa Fe Depot it would make a great beginning for a true inter-modal hub.

[LocoAko]

This is my biggest fear with the streetcar and I hope that this is not how it is perceived by the "powers that be" and most local residents.

Unfortunately, this is the perspective I hear espoused most often from friends of mine in OKC.

[d-usa]

Unfortunately, this is the perspective I hear espoused most often from friends of mine in OKC.

I think a lot of people think it has to be either/or, and fail to realize that it can be both.

[gopokes88]

Expand the streetcar to the OU Health Sciences Center & the Meridian Hotel corridor should be a priority . There are a lot of conventions in that area (OUHSC) now with the 194 room Embassy Suites.



The Adventure District (Zoo & Hall of Fame Stadium) has the old KATY railroad line; could we get something running in that area--something vintage.

That plus a loop to film row, up classen, and then into midtown to meet up with the other track. You could later expand all the way up Classen to Whole Foods.

[gopokes88]

Expand the streetcar to the OU Health Sciences Center & the Meridian Hotel corridor should be a priority . There are a lot of conventions in that area (OUHSC) now with the 194 room Embassy Suites.



The Adventure District (Zoo & Hall of Fame Stadium) has the old KATY railroad line; could we get something running in that area--something vintage.

Nm double

[Anonymous.]

Thank you, UP, for the information. It is very depressing hearing that.

I am glad I am not alone in the "free fares" camp. I really hope we can come up with a solution that fosters success for the streetcar.

The posters above echo what I have heard from people about the streetcar who are normally not "in the know". An overwhelming amount of people I've spoken to have no idea that the streetcar is a modern vehicle. Almost everyone thought it was going to be the oldschool tourist looking ones that you would see in San Francisco.

That alone shows the complete lack of awareness of this entire project. These same people are the ones you need to persuade to try it out, and right now the overwhelming sentiment is "this annoying construction all over downtown for this stupid tourist-trap streetcar that only homeless will ride". And these are young, trendy people - the same ones who engage in all-the-things downtown/midtown/uptown.

[Urban Pioneer]

This is a critical perspective, and I think this is so wrong. People ought to value something they've never used? Here's this great tool we spent a ton of money on, and even though no one targeted to use this phase of the streetcar currently uses public transit, we'll just expect them to naturally change their behavior and start spending money to do so, in addition to the car they already own, because, hey, they ought to value this?Embracing public transit requires a big time behavioral change in OKC. We need to do everything possible to remove barriers to entry. That mentality seems just so irresponsibly out of touch.

I think to address your concerns they will be probably be doing a free introductory period spanning over several months. This view isn't unique to this specific Transit Director. Arguably he is doing a great job stretching every dollar to make EMBARK a much better system.

I was thinking about what the differences are in administration between cities who have streetcar and transit systems. My own father was a system administrator which is probably a big reason I am passionate about making our system better.

If we're contrasting against Kansas City for example, really these contrasts shouldn't be focussed on the Transit Director specifically. But the "buy in" ideology means that there isn't a resistance to no barrier access. One could argue that this has a great deal to do with the personalities involved in city management above the agency.

Mayor Sly James gets it. He sees the value of streetcar being free and accessible. His leadership on those issues is catapulting their city forward and attracting the very same young people OKC says it wants.

We are essentially between mayors and we have a City Manager who's investments in transit have been modest, to say the least. It is simply not a forefront priority over other city services.

There is more to this story. I wrote a long post about it but it disappeared when I was trying to re-log back in. Will try to write more later if people want to know more.

[HangryHippo]

There is more to this story. I wrote a long post about it but it disappeared when I was trying to re-log back in. Will try to write more later if people want to know more.

I can't speak for others, but I'd love to know more, UP.

[Johnb911]

I know we all point to the KC streetcar as a huge success in terms of ridership, and a large part of that is likely the lack of fares. I was talking to a friend a while back (6 months?) who lives part time in KC and he said the viewpoint up there was that it was hardly a success, and they couldn't find and won't vote in new funding to expand the line.

I'm sure I could look this up to verify, but there are a bunch of other folks on here much more in the know. Has anyone else heard that out of KC?