Hill, The

[Spartan]

I'm not exactly an urban planning master or anything, so bear that in mind. I do have a definite strong interest in urban planning, and am learning as I get more into it. So with that in mind, I think the whole point of a workable hub is this:

You're going to have to change trains on a multipath transit system. Changing trains is much less appealing than just taking your train in to the hub, getting out, and walking a short distance to where you want to go. So it would stand to reason that the hub would be nearby the current and/or expected critical mass of dense destinations. These areas, imo, would be somewhere near CBD for commuters, arts district (city hall, civic center, museums), Bricktown (entertainment, nightlife), Midtown (live, work, play, up-and-coming).

I think of taking rail into Chicago and walking out of Union Station. You walk out into the CBD, with the Sears Tower directly in front of you. Lots of stuff is within a few blocks, including tons of jobs, and a one mile walk through a nice urbanized walkable area, and you're at Michigan Avenue and Grant Park.

Thinking of here...I keep coming up with Santa Fe Station or some new creative reuse in the CBD. Somewhere with easy access to Bricktown, the CBD, and ideally the park. The Hill location, or east Bricktown in general, is too far away from the CBD to be effective, IMO. Santa Fe Station covers Bricktown better than The Hill would, and it places you in walking distance of most downtown towers.

A lot of this is being based in planning for future rail, but I think this needs to be done now, rather than later. I'd hate to see us turn this into another county jail. A little prelim work on proper location will make future use better, future costs lower, and keep the whole station futureproof.

Where the streetcar lines go out from there through the greater area will then serve to catalyze the development in areas that don't currently have it.

This thread has been officially hijacked (but threads on OKC Talk do kinda tend to meander through "all current subjects" during their lifespan), but it might be for the best. I would much rather talk about the streetcar and intermodal hub we ARE getting than The Hill, which I would rather not even exist..I can dream..

I like how you're thinking about a "Union Station" environment. I was reading your post and the whole time I was comparing it to the area around the old Santa Fe Depot..and let's just say I couldn't help snickering a little bit. Union Station in most cities is the life of activity.

You get off the train and you're in the midst of it all! In OKC, first let's pretend you could get off at Union Station..yeah. Now when you actually do get off at Santa Fe Depot you're smacked in the face by the ugliest street in all of OKC, E.K. Gaylord.

Across the street is the empty wall of the Cox Center. Why don't we renovate that wall -- as well as the side facing the Myriad Gardens. We don't talk about what a failure in planning the Cox Center was, but let's start talking about it now. We're still going to have the Cox Center AND its convention space long after we add a second convention center, so let's try and fix it by all means. The Cox squanders the most important frontage it has: the Myriad Gardens AND Santa Fe Depot. We could liven up E.K. Gaylord by fixing that side of the Cox Center, narrowing the street, making it more attractive, etc. I like how we've dressed up the tracks but it still means very little because Gaylord itself is deathly to cross and just as bad to look at.

Fixing Gaylord would go a LONG ways toward a "typical Union Station" environment at Santa Fe Depot, which is possible. Adding the restaurants in the old loading docks was a great idea.

[jbrown84]

I just think putting the whole project in the bricktown area is a horrible idea when it comes to improving OKC as a whole.

That's just not the case. If it were just going to be a circle around Bricktown, I would be in agreement, but it will connect Bricktown to underdeveloped areas like Midtown and Film Row.

[max]

This thread has been officially hijacked (but threads on OKC Talk do kinda tend to meander through "all current subjects" during their lifespan), but it might be for the best. I would much rather talk about the streetcar and intermodal hub we ARE getting than The Hill, which I would rather not even exist..I can dream..

I figured the thread was officially hijacked and over seeing as how The Hill is pretty effectively dead, without a single unit sold. It's either start over completely and make it into something that works, leaving the units already created as higher cost housing and building more mixed use throughout. If a true mixed use area could be built around it, with housing at reasonable prices, and they get sold and utilized, then possibly the existing high-end units *could* come close to their asking price. In other words, I think the Hill *would* sell, as long as it's not "the proposed Hill".

I live along Western Avenue due to the fact that I feel it's one of the most friendly, urban (in spirit if not in development), and walkable areas of OKC. I can get to a record store, bars, and dining within a short walk. It's missing a few things, but it is a very great neighborhood for someone wanting to have lots of access to walkable amenities without having to cross mega-expressways.

I don't think I'm alone in wanting that, and it's honestly kinda sad that you have to go to an area that's suburban in development (granted, it's 1920s city suburban in development as opposed to Edmond suburban) to really get that. Midtown is starting to get there (now that it has more businesses and the splendor that is McNellie's) and I would love to look at it when I feel like moving again.

From what I can see, The Hill offered no mixed usage, and it's like 6 or 7 blocks from the heart of Bricktown. To me at least, if you're going to sell this area, it needs to continue the true urban fabric to it. I wouldn't want to buy a home in downtown just to end up driving everywhere, which is where the Hill would have probably left me.

There, back on topic, and preaching to the choir at that. I say forget this place, get a good, solid transit system in place, and the transit system (with proper oversight and solid design review) will fix the root dilemma.

[betts]

In places like Chicago, six blocks is a quick stroll. My daughters walk that far to get to the closest bus stop, and we frequently walk close to a mile to get to restaurants, the bank or Starbucks when I'm visiting. They're in very good shape, and enjoy the stroll.

I think Deep Deuce actually offers as much or more than Western, depending on what you're looking for. You can easily walk to Bricktown, to restaurants and/or clubs. You can walk to movies at the Harkins or bowling at Red Pin. You can walk to games at the Ford Center, over to the Myriad Gardens. I've walked to and from Trattoria on a nice evening, and it's biking distance from Midtown. There's no grocery store, but there is a cleaners within walking distance. And groceries are a short drive away over at 16th and Classen. It's not Chicago, but it's not bad.

I think there might be a couple of people who have bought units at the Hill. I don't know for sure, but there are a couple of lights on in the evenings, and at least one of them says "sold" in front of it. The concept of the Hill was allright, and in line drawings it didn't look that bad. They gave the townhouses names that sounded like downtown, so I can sort of see how OCURA might have gotten sucked in. I remember looking at the plans for a little while thinking they might be OK. It's just that in the flesh it looks a bit more like a Disney version of somebody's idea of townhouses of yesteryear, and on the inside they look a bit like more expensive tract homes in Edmond. To quote a friend: Oh to have their money and my taste!

[max]

I agree, and from, say, Block 42, you're a bit more conveniently located, along with the mixed use appearing through that area. Deep Deuce has made massive strides toward urban living in the past few years, and it makes me proud. It's great how so much positive change has occurred in such a short time period, and I know it'll go nowhere but up.

I think attitudes are changing and living is going to become more urban, throughout the US, but particularly here in the south, seeing as how we were so removed from urbanism in the past 50-60 years already. It's occurring because people are finding the value in this type of living again, after decades of people opting for the total suburban life in a bedroom community (and that's fine if you choose to live that way, no dig intended). I just see in people around me that this is wanted, be it in the area of Western Avenue, or in Deep Deuce, Midtown, or anywhere else in inner OKC. People want to live here again and they don't want to have to drive for every little thing. The green movement that is taking hold probably plays a large part in this, and maybe a bit of backlash to the amount of time everyone's spent in cars for so long.

I feel that well-designed transit and the right development is going to be the tipping point for all of this to just explode. You can see this in action in Dallas right now, granted on a larger scale.

Also, I stand corrected if units have sold at the Hill. I think I'm just parroting something that's been said before in this thread.

[Spartan]

When there have been about two dozen or so units finished so far, and only 2 have possibly sold.. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say no units haven't sold, and it being wrong is only a technicality. Max, I didn't mean to call you out because it wasn't you that got us off topic, in fact, I couldn't care less that we're off topic..who wants to talk about The Hill? I was just prefacing my post with something kind of on-topic before joining in the transit discussion.

[betts]

I agree, and from, say, Block 42, you're a bit more conveniently located, along with the mixed use appearing through that area. Deep Deuce has made massive strides toward urban living in the past few years, and it makes me proud. It's great how so much positive change has occurred in such a short time period, and I know it'll go nowhere but up.

I think attitudes are changing and living is going to become more urban, throughout the US, but particularly here in the south, seeing as how we were so removed from urbanism in the past 50-60 years already. It's occurring because people are finding the value in this type of living again, after decades of people opting for the total suburban life in a bedroom community (and that's fine if you choose to live that way, no dig intended). I just see in people around me that this is wanted, be it in the area of Western Avenue, or in Deep Deuce, Midtown, or anywhere else in inner OKC. People want to live here again and they don't want to have to drive for every little thing. The green movement that is taking hold probably plays a large part in this, and maybe a bit of backlash to the amount of time everyone's spent in cars for so long.

I feel that well-designed transit and the right development is going to be the tipping point for all of this to just explode. You can see this in action in Dallas right now, granted on a larger scale.

Also, I stand corrected if units have sold at the Hill. I think I'm just parroting something that's been said before in this thread.

I don't disagree at all, and I wasn't meaning to be argumentative about the Hill, but was rather merely commenting that I think there are a few people living there. When you're walking your dog a couple of times a day, you see things that others might not driving by.

I am very much in favor of mass transit, and also feel it is the key to making downtown living much more palatable to a larger number of people. I think mass transit actually encourages walkability, simply because one is rarely right at a stop. Once one is used to the concept of walking at all, it's a logical step to think nothing of adding a couple of extra blocks to the excursion. I've found that living downtown. It's so much easier to get around on foot, that the time it takes to cross from the Deep Deuce area to places like Trattoria are next to nothing. It becomes silly to think of getting in your car to go anywhere within a half mile to mile. When the weather is nice, it's a pleasant stroll.

A grocery store will be very nice, but really, it's no farther to drive to the store at 16th and Classen than I've driven to other grocery stores when living elsewhere. And, although it's not exactly a Whole Foods, it's serviceable. I would prefer to be able to walk or bike to the store, but it's not as if having to drive is any different than it's always been.

[flippity]

Homes in The Hill area, in downtown Oklahoma City, is under construction Tuesday. PHOTO BY JACONNA AGUIRRE, THE OKLAHOMAN

Developers hope homes top a hill of downtown OKC rivals
STEVE LACKMEYER
Published: November 14, 2008

Bill Canfield admits he has kept pretty quiet about his contribution to downtown housing. But he says he’s ready to start talking about The Hill, which is the largest of the for-sale housing projects launched to date.

The first 24 residences at NE 2 and Russell Perry Avenue are set to be ready for buyers to begin moving in next month. Another 26 residences are in various stages of construction as Canfield continues his plan to build 150 upscale homes downtown.

"This is really a neighborhood,” Canfield said. "It’s been planned — the view won’t be obliterated by a low-end condo building going up between you and everybody else. The other projects are like outposts in the wilderness — this won’t be like that.”

Canfield said he shied away from marketing because of the lag in getting started — about two years — that stemmed from replacing early subcontractors who weren’t up to standards and site complications that faced all downtown housing projects the past few years.

"It’s hard to give people a list of features, construction quality, and then expect them to really know what’s it’s going to look like,” Canfield said.


Setting them apart

Model homes have been open for tours the past few months, however, and Michael Biddinger and First Source Real Estate have taken up the task of selling the residences. The first phase, which consists of smaller homes between 1,600 and 2,100 square feet, are selling for $420,000 to $559,000.
Larger units of up to 3,600 square feet include one unit, already reserved, selling for about $1 million.

Biddinger believes The Hill has a lot to set it apartfrom competitors — fully finished homes that feature granite countertops, 11-foot ceilings, seven-inch crown molding, wood floors, geo-thermal heating and air systems, and storm shelters.

The Hill also will offer 26 designs to choose from.

With residents set to move in, construction will start next year on a "town hall” that will feature a swimming pool, meeting rooms, exercise area and concierge services.

Canfield and Beddinger said they believe Oklahomans will take to urban living if given a chance to see what it’s like.


Michael Biddinger, managing broker and Bill Canfield, principal in The Hill, stand in a home at 216 Russell M. Perry Ave. PHOTO BY JACONNA AGUIRRE, THE OKLAHOMAN



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It still makes me sick that Canfield was given this land by Urban Renewal over the Triangle Partners with their much better plan. Evidence the good ole boy system is still alive and well. There were plenty of the community at the meeting the day they reviewed proposals for this property and most were stunned who they picked.

Ha...that's the same Bill Canfield that Harrison Ford's character is based on in that new movie.

[mattjank]

I work right around the corner from the Hill, and for the first time in months, there is equipment moving and people working on the front units today. Maybe they will actually complete the street side units now.

If I were one of the what looks like 2 occupants, I would be pretty hacked off at the way it has gone.

[soonerguru]

I work right around the corner from the Hill, and for the first time in months, there is equipment moving and people working on the front units today. Maybe they will actually complete the street side units now.

If I were one of the what looks like 2 occupants, I would be pretty hacked off at the way it has gone.

I'd be asking for my money back. Are we sure there are two occupants? The place does not look lived in at all.

Looking at the photo of the interior, the place looks so.......Edmond. The fixtures do not excite, although the black granite is nice. It seems the owners did little or no research of what people who desire a downtown lifestyle are actually looking for.

[PLANSIT]

I'd be asking for my money back. Are we sure there are two occupants? The place does not look lived in at all.

Looking at the photo of the interior, the place looks so.......Edmond. The fixtures do not excite, although the black granite is nice. It seems the owners did little or no research of what people who desire a downtown lifestyle are actually looking for.

Yes, the corner unit at 2nd is occupied. Kinda creepy.

[Pete]

It may be a situation that people are living there without actually having closed on the units.

I say this because the exact same thing happened to me... I signed a letter of intent to buy a condo (this was about 25 years ago) in a new development. The construction was well behind schedule and my particular unit wasn't going to be ready for awhile. So, they let me move into another unit while they continued to work on the complex.

I ended up living there alone for about six months before the whole place went belly-up.

In the end, I just moved out and was even able to get my deposit money back. Hopefully the people living at The Hill have a similar arrangement.

[lonestarstatesux]

I'm in Tulsa and been gone awhile... what's with the hardcore opposition to The Hill project? Is it that it has run late? Because everything usually runs late in OKC. Is it because of the 'not-urban-enough' aspect? Isn't at least a higher density area? I remember people thinking that the land could have been used more effectively... I'd like to know concisely what you guys' big beef is.

[king183]

I drove by today just to see how it was looking and there was a crew working on the roadside units. I know some people have said they look ugly, but I think those roadside units are actually pretty nice looking.

I drove around the back and they now have the unfinished units completely gated off with no access. Last time I drove through, you could go back there and see the progress they were making--which is to say, none. Perhaps the crew working on them signifies the construction is picking up again. Perhaps it means nothing (it was actually a small crew).

[MIKELS129]

I was told by someone knowledgeable that The Hill was unable to close because of issues with the plat, legal documents etc. Those have all been resolved and several I think have now closed in the last weeks with more pending.
And there is no bank debt on the property.

[jbrown84]

Ha...that's the same Bill Canfield that Harrison Ford's character is based on in that new movie.

Not unless the character name was changed. He plays "Dr. Stonehill".

[Spartan]

I'm in Tulsa and been gone awhile... what's with the hardcore opposition to The Hill project? Is it that it has run late? Because everything usually runs late in OKC. Is it because of the 'not-urban-enough' aspect? Isn't at least a higher density area? I remember people thinking that the land could have been used more effectively... I'd like to know concisely what you guys' big beef is.

It's become a quagmire. The units will never sell at this rate. Construction stopped because Canfield can't pay the contractors, so everything around the finished units is a huge mud pit. It will never be finished. The site is ruined because it used up all of the frontage and turned the rest into a mud pit. The quagmire could have been avoided by picking a more reasonable proposal. We got the crappiest out of all of the proposals in the first place. We hate these town homes in the first place. They aspire to be too traditional and they look awkward.

[Urbanized]

Not unless the character name was changed. He plays "Dr. Stonehill".

Actually, that's exactly what happened.

[jbrown84]

Thanks for the link. Of course Hollywood wouldn't want the world to know that a cure was found in backwater Oklahoma.

[lonestarstatesux]

Thanks for the link. Of course Hollywood wouldn't want the world to know that a cure was found in backwater Oklahoma.

Tinfoil hat alert.

[betts]

I noticed there are three townhouses listed as sold in one of The Hill's ads in a local magazine. So, I drove by and, sure enough, there are at least two with curtains, and I can see furniture in one of them. Hopefully the developers will spent the proceeds from the sales to finish the exteriors of some of the ones that are unfinished.

[Spartan]

I wonder if there's any kind of discount for buying one of the units that won't be finished. It can be kind of a neat "do it yourself" project lol.

[betts]

I suspect there's a discount for buying any of them, but don't know that for sure. I suppose I could look up their purchase prices and compare them to the prices on the website, but I'm feeling lazy....

[jeffery581]

These are great looking. I remember what this area used to look like!

[Kerry]

These are great looking. I remember what this area used to look like!

I like them also. They remind me of San Francisco's Mission District. I guess S.F. just isn't urban enough for some.