Hill, The

[soonerguru]

It is relatively central to the city

Relatively central compared to, say, Northwest Expressway. Not central to the CBD. Not central at all.

But I'm getting the distinct impression you're not a big fan of the street car and transit hub anyway, so I'll keep that in mind when I read your posts in the future.

Thanks for your input.

[soonerguru]

No. Not this thread, but threads that deal with public transportation. I believe the street car system is going to be a hard sell and it will take a long time and expansion of the system to be effective.

Well, the street car was among the most popular aspects of the MAPS ballot, so it's selling fairly well.

I would agree with you that the location, operating schedules and other aspects will determine how successful it is out of the gate.

[Spartan]

But I'm getting the distinct impression you're not a big fan of the street car and transit hub anyway, so I'll keep that in mind when I read your posts in the future.

Thanks for your input.

lol

[fuzzytoad]

We already sold it. 54% - 46%.

yes, we're getting that distinct impression from the whole "Nyah Nyah, we won" attitude about it.

I'm sorry, but the people you're counting on using it where you guys want to build it don't live here. And the ones who do, have already shown that they're "too good" for public transport.

[jbrown84]

No. Not this thread, but threads that deal with public transportation. I believe the street car system is going to be a hard sell and it will take a long time and expansion of the system to be effective.

I'm completely baffled by the comments by you and fuzzytoad here.

The transit hub will be near the crossing of existing rail lines and right in the middle of the convergence of Bricktown, the new CC, and the CBD. What is all this talk about putting it where there is "zero mass transit utilization"?? I'm confused as to what you don't like.

[Spartan]

They don't like transit..they're being facetious.

[fuzzytoad]

I'm completely baffled by the comments by you and fuzzytoad here.

The transit hub will be near the crossing of existing rail lines and right in the middle of the convergence of Bricktown, the new CC, and the CBD. What is all this talk about putting it where there is "zero mass transit utilization"?? I'm confused as to what you don't like.

Have you ever ridden the current Mass Transit in the middle of Bricktown? or where the new CC will be? Do you even know where it will be?

NOBODY uses the current system, despite the enourmous amount of street-level business already there!

The CBD is already booming, as many of you have mentioned, numerous times.. If the point of the transit system is to boost business, what possible point is there in centralizing it around an area which needs no boost??

You've got this Hills area which is basically destitute, despite all the new construction surrounding it. There's empty condo, after empty apartment building after empty storefront.

Yes, alot of it hasn't been completed, but it would be of you energize it with some MAPS funds.

I cannot fathom the point in energizing an already energized area. It simply sounds stupid. Especially when you've got a completely dead area mearly blocks away..

2nd and Russel is very "central" to OKC.. Not like NW expressway, like Soonerguru is suggesting.. It is ripe for new development.

[fuzzytoad]

Relatively central compared to, say, Northwest Expressway.

That sounds like a horrible place for a Transit hub. Why would you even suggest it?

[jbrown84]

The CBD is already booming, as many of you have mentioned, numerous times.. If the point of the transit system is to boost business, what possible point is there in centralizing it around an area which needs no boost??

Being a catalyst for development is not the primary reason for building transit, and that should be obvious. There must be a balance between serving the areas that need it and the areas that could benefit from TOD.

[fuzzytoad]

Being a catalyst for development is not the primary reason for building transit, and that should be obvious. There must be a balance between serving the areas that need it and the areas that could benefit from TOD.

Agreed, but the consideration should also lie with areas that would actually use it.

[shane453]

The CBD is already booming, as many of you have mentioned, numerous times.. If the point of the transit system is to boost business, what possible point is there in centralizing it around an area which needs no boost??
.

What you fail to realize is that the streetcar's route will connect undeveloped areas, developing areas, and developed areas. By connecting developed areas like Bricktown and the CBD to each other, you ensure ridership. By connecting Bricktown and the CBD to areas like Midtown and the Triangle/Maywood Park area (which includes the Hill), you help the newly developing areas thrive and grow more quickly. Further, you connect all of these areas to a place like the neighborhood south of I-40, where the park will go in, and you help a totally abandoned area start to turn around.

Don't be difficult just for the sake of being difficult. That's called trolling.

[fuzzytoad]

What you fail to realize is that the streetcar's route will connect undeveloped areas, developing areas, and developed areas. By connecting developed areas like Bricktown and the CBD to each other, you ensure ridership. By connecting Bricktown and the CBD to areas like Midtown and the Triangle/Maywood Park area (which includes the Hill), you help the newly developing areas thrive and grow more quickly. Further, you connect all of these areas to a place like the neighborhood south of I-40, where the park will go in, and you help a totally abandoned area start to turn around.

Don't be difficult just for the sake of being difficult. That's called trolling.

I don't fail to realize that.. What you fail to realize is that many places are being ignored simply because they aren't currently being utilized, or they're being utilized by the "wrong" people..

I don't feel as if I'm trolling... if I were, I'd be suggesting areas like NW Expressway.. sorta like what soonerguru is doing..

As many of you keep mentioning, this is just a first stage Transit System.. you can't possibly hope to connect ALL of Bricktown to ALL of the CBD and ALL of Midtown.. Nobody would expect that.. but you also can't hope for this to be successfull unless you connect SOME of the outlying areas in which there is no current development.. and why not put the hub of it where there is no population or finished development at all right now??

[jbrown84]

It's called a hub for a reason. It needs to be at the HUB of the city, not tucked away in a far corner of Deep Deuce. Same reason airport hubs are not in places like Lawton.

Agreed, but the consideration should also lie with areas that would actually use it.

You keep saying that. Where is it that you think people will use it if not downtown/midtown/bricktown??

[fuzzytoad]

You keep saying that. Where is it that you think people will use it if not downtown/midtown/bricktown??

because they don't use the existing services now.

[Spartan]

I disagree with all of fuzzytoad's "points" but I can't help but find his posts hilarious. I like this version of the NTMers much better than iron (angry trolls) or gmwise (slogans and buzz words, no substance).

[fuzzytoad]

It's called a hub for a reason. It needs to be at the HUB of the city, not tucked away in a far corner of Deep Deuce. Same reason airport hubs are not in places like Lawton.

good point.. Then why not start the hub with our Airport? there's not a whole lot going on there as far as street-level business go..

While I know that's an asinine point, try to imagine the outcry from the elite class in this city there would be if that's where they put it, despite how much good it would do for this city...

[soonerguru]

I don't feel as if I'm trolling... if I were, I'd be suggesting areas like NW Expressway.. sorta like what soonerguru is doing..

Now you're just being a sophist. I didn't suggest it. I suggested that your version of "central" to OKC was less preposterous than Northwest Expressway, but still not hitting the definition of central.

Furthermore, you have no basis for your argument that the Hill site would serve any current transit users en masse.

Your joke is getting stale and your posts on this subject are not sincere. You're just taking potshots. How is that not troll-worthy?

[rcjunkie]

I disagree with all of fuzzytoad's "points" but I can't help but find his posts hilarious. I like this version of the NTMers much better than iron (angry trolls) or gmwise (slogans and buzz words, no substance).

His posts are hilarious, in an obnoxious , ignorant and trolling kind of way.

[fuzzytoad]

I disagree with all of fuzzytoad's "points" but I can't help but find his posts hilarious. I like this version of the NTMers much better than iron (angry trolls) or gmwise (slogans and buzz words, no substance).

I'm not a NTMer. I don't live in OKC. I live in Edmond and I'm out of the state most of the year, so the new tax doesn't really affect me.

I couldn't vote on it, and I didn't participate in any of the MAPS3 discussions.

If the City benefits from it, then YAY. If it doesn't benefit from it, I think it will be due to the blank check wording of the ballot and the elitism attitude of many OKCers who blindly stand behind everything the City government does regardless of what should be done on behalf of the city as a whole.

[Spartan]

Regardless you aren't taking the koolaid, damnit.

It's called a hub for a reason. It needs to be at the HUB of the city, not tucked away in a far corner of Deep Deuce. Same reason airport hubs are not in places like Lawton.

You keep saying that. Where is it that you think people will use it if not downtown/midtown/bricktown??

2 comments. That's also the reason airport hubs aren't in places like OKC, let alone Lawton. And where would fuzzytoad suggest people might use it if not downtown/midtown/bricktown.. well I'm VERY disappointed that he didn't suggest Cloud 9 (although the airport is close from an urbanist perspective, as well as a flight perspective). So shame on you indeed, fuzzytoad, if you're going to be our resident asinine astutely sarcastic MAPS detractor, you need to stop missing golden opportunities like that one..

[fuzzytoad]

Now you're just being a sophist. I didn't suggest it. I suggested that your version of "central" to OKC was less preposterous than Northwest Expressway, but still not hitting the definition of central.

Furthermore, you have no basis for your argument that the Hill site would serve any current transit users en masse.

Your joke is getting stale and your posts on this subject are not sincere. You're just taking potshots. How is that not troll-worthy?

My version of The Hills as being "central" to OKC is more preposterous than an area merely 3 blocks away?? Seriously?

Of course I have no basis for the Hill site serving as a transit site.. It's just as preposterous as Bricktown serving as a transit site en masse..

But at least it is destitute, half-developed and in need of an economy boost. Perhaps people will actually move there and actually use the transit system..

The areas you people are suggesting are more than idiotic. Nobody uses the current system in the areas you suggest, and you seem to think that simply having a transit system there on top of the current one will spurt some sort of mass-influx of people willing to shop for overpriced clothing and trinkets!

You have no clue where the new CC will be located, but you seem to assume it will be just outside the CBD and/or BT. It may very well be, but that's no reason to start planning to rip up currently well-established businesses with construction of streetcar lines in an attempt to boost business where there's already an economic boom.

By your own admission, this is the first stage of a massively detailed transit line, which will incorporated Norman, edmond, moore and other outlying areas.

It is retarded to locate the central hub for this in an area which is already succeeding, thus reducing the economic boon of that area when the new CC could potentially be located clear across town.

It is also moronic to place the crown jewel of this transit hub in an area already proven to shun all currently existing forms of mass transit.

There's already people who live in the more affluent areas of midtown rallying to keep the rail lines(which once existed there in the past) from reappearing in order to keep themselves separated from the mass of unwashed transit riders that will ultimately land on their doorsteps..

Simply put, you want Mass Transit in an area that has already proven they won't use it. You want Mass Transit to boost street-level business in an area that is already booming with street-level business.

[fuzzytoad]

Regardless you aren't taking the koolaid, damnit.



2 comments. That's also the reason airport hubs aren't in places like OKC, let alone Lawton. And where would fuzzytoad suggest people might use it if not downtown/midtown/bricktown.. well I'm VERY disappointed that he didn't suggest Cloud 9 (although the airport is close from an urbanist perspective, as well as a flight perspective). So shame on you indeed, fuzzytoad, if you're going to be our resident asinine astutely sarcastic MAPS detractor, you need to stop missing golden opportunities like that one..

I'm actually not familiar with that area, so yeah, shame on me..

[jbrown84]

because they don't use the existing services now.

You didn't answer the question.

good point.. Then why not start the hub with our Airport?

Because it needs to be connected to interstate and commuter rail, hence downtown along the Amtrak line.

[max]

I'm not exactly an urban planning master or anything, so bear that in mind. I do have a definite strong interest in urban planning, and am learning as I get more into it. So with that in mind, I think the whole point of a workable hub is this:

You're going to have to change trains on a multipath transit system. Changing trains is much less appealing than just taking your train in to the hub, getting out, and walking a short distance to where you want to go. So it would stand to reason that the hub would be nearby the current and/or expected critical mass of dense destinations. These areas, imo, would be somewhere near CBD for commuters, arts district (city hall, civic center, museums), Bricktown (entertainment, nightlife), Midtown (live, work, play, up-and-coming).

I think of taking rail into Chicago and walking out of Union Station. You walk out into the CBD, with the Sears Tower directly in front of you. Lots of stuff is within a few blocks, including tons of jobs, and a one mile walk through a nice urbanized walkable area, and you're at Michigan Avenue and Grant Park.

Thinking of here...I keep coming up with Santa Fe Station or some new creative reuse in the CBD. Somewhere with easy access to Bricktown, the CBD, and ideally the park. The Hill location, or east Bricktown in general, is too far away from the CBD to be effective, IMO. Santa Fe Station covers Bricktown better than The Hill would, and it places you in walking distance of most downtown towers.

A lot of this is being based in planning for future rail, but I think this needs to be done now, rather than later. I'd hate to see us turn this into another county jail. A little prelim work on proper location will make future use better, future costs lower, and keep the whole station futureproof.

Where the streetcar lines go out from there through the greater area will then serve to catalyze the development in areas that don't currently have it.

[fuzzytoad]

You didn't answer the question.

Sorry, misread your question..

I'd put it where city transit authorities have determined where the most dense amount of current transit(bus) use is and extend it's arms out along the most traveled paths.. I've been reading the City Council minutes and believe that areas was in the South side of OKC. I'm sure someone will be along to correct me, but it most certainly wasn't anywhere near the Downtown area..

I think we can all agree that the southside of OKC needs a tad bit more help spurring along economic growth than bricktown, midtown or the CBD need right now..

Because it needs to be connected to interstate and commuter rail, hence downtown along the Amtrak line.

Okay, that's an absolutely valid reason for not locating it near the airport. I'm not sitting here trying to sh!t on the whole Transit idea.. I think it's great. We're getting it anyway, according to the MAPS3 proposal. I just think putting the whole project in the bricktown area is a horrible idea when it comes to improving OKC as a whole.