Staybridge Suites

[HangryHippo]

Steve, is there any chance you could talk to ODOT again and get some clarification on this situation? It might seem trivial, but I'm really not understanding how they could allow a hotel to be built right next to the easement but want to retain it for some sort of structure... The hotel appears to be going right in the middle of the land they would need for something like that.

[BDP]

they don't have to wow the board or exceed the standards .. they have to meet the standards ..

Well, not in OKC anyway. Really just shows how far OKC has to go. In better markets developers will wow boards or exceed standards because it is simply what they need to do to compete. There is so much better stuff than this built all the time, especially when you're talking about something within half a mile of a city's biggest entertainment district, not because of guidelines set by regulatory bodies, but because market conditions dictate it is needed. The reality is that our market hasn't reached such a level because so much junk was allowed from the get go. Lower Bricktown really stunted the market standard for the area and Bricktown has been trying to overcome that with regulations when it can ever since.

So every time something like this comes out of the ground, it is added to the mix of developments that dictate the market conditions and drags the cumulative standard down with it. By now, the market environment down there should be that a developer would be embarrassed to pitch something like this, but they're not because it's close to what is already there. For some reason, after all the good that has been done in the area, the proposals the bricktown area gets indicate that developers still see it as no different than Meridian and 15th.

[BoulderSooner]

Hey, it's a huge corner lot. PERFECT for surface parking.

*facepalm*

where would you like patrons of this hotel to park??

[Steve]

Guys, hear me on this: this board, when it is at it's best, comes up with great brain-storming sessions and creative solutions to problems. This is the ultimate "outside the box" assembly of urban thinkers. I've already told you, this developer is indicating he wants to do the right thing, he just doesn't have urban experience. I've also told you he took great interest in the photo posted here on the S.C. Staybridge Suites. You can throw rocks, you can assume that he's making up the easement argument and continue to criticize. Or you can look at his site plan and come up with creative alternatives.

[BoulderSooner]

I am optimistic that since Patel has indicated he wants to invest in this area, that he is looking to nurture a positive record with Bricktown and the design review board. I'm remaining optimistic until this one gets farther down the process.

this is this developers only project in bricktown .. the other hotels are a different patel

[BoulderSooner]

In my neighborhood back in Seattle, this is where all the patrons are going to park:

https://plus.google.com/photos/10889...04221765860417

And note, the sidewalk is left open for pedestrians during construction. Such a novel idea.

there is no street parking in this part of bricktown .. there are no parking lots or side walks touching this property for any business to work at this exact location they would need parking and on this site the easement doesn't allow for a street-wall along lincoln or reno

[G.Walker]

How does this (red) occupy any more or different ROW than the proposal (white)?

Instead of going out, why don't they go up, instead of 5 story, make it 10? Then they could make street wall along Lincoln, without going over ODOT easment. Just To Facts can yo provide sketch up of what I am proposing?

[adaniel]

Guys, hear me on this: this board, when it is at it's best, comes up with great brain-storming sessions and creative solutions to problems. This is the ultimate "outside the box" assembly of urban thinkers. I've already told you, this developer is indicating he wants to do the right thing, he just doesn't have urban experience. I've also told you he took great interest in the photo posted here on the S.C. Staybridge Suites. You can throw rocks, you can assume that he's making up the easement argument and continue to criticize. Or you can look at his site plan and come up with creative alternatives.

I think a lot of people on here did not even bother reading your article in which the design board pretty much spelled out the current design is unacceptable. This, coupled with you statement that the developer is ready and willing to modify the design, really makes it confusing how many people are throwing Mr. Patel under the bus. Truth be told this city has a so-so record of urban design and most developers here are used to Edmond/Norman/Moore standards. It's a learning process that all parties need embrace. I am going to withhold judgment until I see the final design.

[BoulderSooner]

Instead of going out, why don't they go up, instead of 5 story, make it 10? Then they could make street wall along Lincoln, without going over ODOT easment. Just To Facts can yo provide sketch up of what I am proposing?

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

[G.Walker]

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

That's the whole point, is the developer willing to invest the extra money to make this a viable urban development or settle?

[Just the facts]

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

How are other 10 story hotels in Bricktown viable? There is one under construction 2 blocks away. It seems to me G.Walker has a good solution. Build twice as high and use half the ground space. Place it along Lincoln between the easment and the north property boundary and place parking between the building and the interstate. Sell off the land south of the easement for a drive-thru Starbucks on the corner.

[BDP]

there is no street parking in this part of bricktown .. there are no parking lots or side walks touching this property

Ummm, there's also not a hotel there, so I guess you're saying that we shouldn't even be talking about this because what this area is is all that it will ever be?

Yes, it sucks right now. Some people just don't want it to always suck. That's all.

[BDP]

you also just increased the cost enough to make it not viable

If the margin is really that small, I question whether it should be built at all.

[BDP]

It's a learning process that all parties need embrace.

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where there previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

[Steve]

big difference in cost when you build higher than 5 stories

[Just the facts]

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where their previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

It is kind of like Groundhog Day isn't it. Why does every new developer have to start over in the first box?

An acquaintance of mine recently inherited some small parcels of land near downtown Jax and a pretty good sum of money. He decided he wants to develop the land and asked if I could act as a sounding board or provide some urbanist input. We are scheduled to take a trip down to Ft Lauderdale and Miami at the end of the month so he can see New Urbanist ideas in action (he is also very interested in urban farming so if any of you can recommend some resources on that subject please post them in the New Urbanism Library thread). If I was going to spend million building downtown and I didn't know anything about it I would find someone like me and take a field trip. He wants to have a good idea of what he wants so he can find an architect that can design what he wants.

[G.Walker]

It only takes one developer to take a chance on a good urban development, and if successful, others will follow suit. I know there would be a cost difference, but is a developer willing to invest that extra money to make it better or settle? You even touched on that in your article, developers taking pride in their developments.

[BDP]

big difference in cost when you build higher than 5 stories

And if that cost is enough to blow up a hotel deal half a mile from bricktown, then it's worse than I thought. I always feel like we're making progress, but there's also constant reminders that OKC's market is far from competitive and, unfortunately, stuff like this can make it less desirable to visit and once again solidify bricktown's fate as one of stagnation.

[Buffalo Bill]

Just the Facts, the ODOT easement, as I understand it, is marked by the slightly visible pathway that cuts diagonally across the corner just north of the billboard, and starts directly across from the entrance to the gas station.

The easement in question runs diagonally, NW to SE across the property. There is an underground structure, I think it is a 2- 7' x 9' Reinforced Concrete Box Culvert that drains, presumably, much of Bricktown. It can be seen on the SB3 picture on your blog post. These are two of the cells that are part of the 4-cell structure that drains onto the Oklahoma River on the SW corner of the I-40 / I-235 interchange.

That's not to say that it can't be relocated, but it will not be cheap to do so.

[Just the facts]

So the easement in question is not the abandoned railroad?

[HangryHippo]

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where there previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

Fantastic post and I couldn't agree more.

[metro]

I don't agree with DOKC's and Chambers comments worried about saturation, I think as usual, they fail to acknowledge how far we are behind our peer cities, WE'RE PLAYING CATCHUP!! OKC has proven the build it and they will come prototype, and we have never built any developments on speculation. This market could support several more hotels in the downtown core, as well as in probably every sector of the metro. This stuff snowballs and development attracts more development hence attracts more people. Props to BUDC for at least trying to have some design standards, although they usually miss the mark of what they should be doing.

[Buffalo Bill]

So the easement in question is not the abandoned railroad?

As far as the ODOT Drainage Easement that was referenced, correct. I believe this is probably a structure owned by the City of OKC, that was connected to new construction in the mid 80's to the structure that runs under I-40. It was a part of the I-235 interchange project. It's represented by the two lines that run through the parking lot that Steve has posted on his blog.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/files/2013/02/sb3.jpg

[Just the facts]

Okay, so the boxes get moved and reconnected at the active railroad tracks and problem solved. Seems easy enough. Is this what drains into that inlet along I-35?

[adaniel]

True. It's just that it seems it would only take a day trip to Austin, Denver, or even Ft. Worth and the learning "process" would be complete. There are so many examples within a days drive of simple, uncomplicated developments that created successful urban enclaves where there previously were none or in areas that had been considered "undesirable" areas. And before anyone says it, I know Oklahoma City is not to the level of those markets yet (these proposals prove it), but maybe that's in part because stuff like this keeps getting built.

BTW, I understand that this project is not final and that the developer will consider revisions and that the board did not approve it, but, honestly, the fact that it was presented at all is indicative of a bigger problem that I just thought was worthy of discussion.

Certainly don't disagree with anything you said. However, you are just seeing the final end product. Let me just say as a former Dallasite, some absolute stinkers were proposed before downtown/uptown Dallas hit critical mass. Fortunately they have a review board similar to ours, and you definitely saw the quality of development slowly improve over time.

I would love the day when some of our local developers finally "get it" on there own, but you gotta start somewhere. For now we have a pretty good group of people that is going to prevent the sort of crap that was acceptable when DT/BT development was in its infancy.