Lift

[Teo9969]

From Steve's article:

“It's hard to argue that Midtown offers the best quality of life for downtown residents right now if you're wanting more than just an apartment and a couple of restaurants,” Brooks said.

Not really a fan of this Deep Deuce pot-shot...especially when you consider that a lot of things are about to come online for DD that have more uses than just residential.

And the lack of purchasable residence in Midtown is a serious advantage to DD.

[Urbanized]

I caught that comment and was disappointed by it. It's human nature, I guess, but personally I would rather not see people (especially those with influence) pitting one downtown district against the other. One of the things that makes downtown so appealing is the proximity to other districts. When Midtown improves, it makes things better for people in Deep Deuce, and vice-versa. These districts are not in silos, or a vacuum. One of the things that for instance makes the Metropolitan so appealing is of course its proximity to Automobile Alley/9th, but make no mistake the people there will also value easy access to Deep Deuce, Bricktown, the CBD, Midtown, the health center...CONNECTIONS TO OTHER COOL PLACES is a large part of what makes downtown living appealing.

When he makes this somewhat negative comment obviously directed at Deep Deuce, he ignores the fact that people in DD are only a couple hundred yards and a pleasant walk away from Bricktown. They are also convenient to Chesapeake arena, and an easier walk to the CBD. If you want to make the mistake of keeping score, they probably win. But why keep score? It's pointless and potentially destructive. If you want to contrast lifestyles to sell people on the idea of living there, contrast it with people paying big apartment rents in the far northwest part of OKC, who have to drive...everywhere.

The residents in this new Midtown locale are unquestionably going to love living in this place, walking down the street to McNellie's, Waffle Champion, GoGo, Fassler Hall, et al, but they are also very convenient to Plaza District, 23rd Street and elsewhere. Believe me, they won't be spending all of their time on the streets of Midtown. This is not a zero sum game, and we shouldn't treat it like one. I've said for years that we are not slicing up the same pie into smaller pieces; we're baking a larger pie.

That said, this place is truly fantastic and exciting.

[soonerguru]

I caught that comment and was disappointed by it. It's human nature, I guess, but personally I would rather not see people (especially those with influence) pitting one downtown district against the other. One of the things that makes downtown so appealing is the proximity to other districts. When Midtown improves, it makes things better for people in Deep Deuce, and vice-versa. These districts are not in silos, or a vacuum. One of the things that for instance makes the Metropolitan so appealing is of course its proximity to Automobile Alley/9th, but make no mistake the people there will also value easy access to Deep Deuce, Bricktown, the CBD, Midtown, the health center...CONNECTIONS TO OTHER COOL PLACES is a large part of what makes downtown living appealing.

When he makes this somewhat negative comment obviously directed at Deep Deuce, he ignores the fact that people in DD are only a couple hundred yards and a pleasant walk away from Bricktown. They are also convenient to Chesapeake arena, and an easier walk to the CBD. If you want to make the mistake of keeping score, they probably win. But why keep score? It's pointless and potentially destructive. If you want to contrast lifestyles to sell people on the idea of living there, contrast it with people paying big apartment rents in the far northwest part of OKC, who have to drive...everywhere.

The residents in this new Midtown locale are unquestionably going to love living in this place, walking down the street to McNellie's, Waffle Champion, GoGo, Fassler Hall, et al, but they are also very convenient to Plaza District, 23rd Street and elsewhere. Believe me, they won't be spending all of their time on the streets of Midtown. This is not a zero sum game, and we shouldn't treat it like one. I've said for years that we are not slicing up the same pie into smaller pieces; we're baking a larger pie.

That said, this place is truly fantastic and exciting.

To be fair, Brooks is building a very large apartment community at the southern edge of Deep Deuce, so it's hard to imagine him slighting Deep Deuce or Bricktown. Perhaps it was a potshot at suburban living options?

One more point: the streetcar will make all of this a moot point anyway; people will be a pleasant 10-minute ride away from anywhere in Downtown.

[Teo9969]

When I was in Berlin for 14 days, I stayed at any hostel for 4 days tops. I think I ended up staying in 5 different hostels in 2 weeks during my time there. It was really cool to see the differences in various districts, and while I had my preferences (Prenzlauer Berg and Oranienburg) other districts had certain things to offer that those places did not, and furthermore, they provided VARIETY to what I realize would otherwise become a bland experience after a period of time.

So it's not just cooking a larger pie, it's adding more interesting ingredients to make the whole shebang taste better.

[BDP]

From Steve's article:



Not really a fan of this Deep Deuce pot-shot...especially when you consider that a lot of things are about to come online for DD that have more uses than just residential.

And the lack of purchasable residence in Midtown is a serious advantage to DD.

Yeah, when he said "it's hard to argue", all I could think was that it's actually quite easy to argue, since DD is actually the only area now that is within 10 blocks of a couple dozen restaurants of all varieties and offers more 2000+ square feet for sale options. Plus, you got the CBD, a movie theater, music venues, and 20k seat arena within walking distance that midtown won't ever have (well, I'd probably walk those places from midtown, but a lot of people here probably won't). I love midtown and think it has a ton of potential, but right now it really is a handful of very good mid-level restaurants and rental apartments. Nothing wrong with that, but the irony is that midtown, right now, is the place you go if you want an apartment near a couple of restaurants.

In the end, I think he was just trying to sell the idea and promote it, but using the inaccurate relative comparison to do it did make him come of sounding a little foolish.

[Rover]

People read WAY too much into some of these statements. Don't look for controversy where it doesn't exist. If anyone understands the dynamics between the sub-sectors of the entire core it is Brooks.

[Urbanized]

To be fair, Brooks is building a very large apartment community at the southern edge of Deep Deuce, so it's hard to imagine him slighting Deep Deuce or Bricktown. Perhaps it was a potshot at suburban living options?

One more point: the streetcar will make all of this a moot point anyway; people will be a pleasant 10-minute ride away from anywhere in Downtown.

No, pretty sure it was a not-so-subtle dig at other parts of downtown, saying this location was somehow better than they are:

“It's hard to argue that Midtown offers the best quality of life for downtown residents right now if you're wanting more than just an apartment and a couple of restaurants,” Brooks said.

But, it's not really a big deal. As you point out, he's invested elsewhere, and it doesn't affect my enthusiasm for all of the great work he's doing. Probably just a minor slip in the excitement of talking about why THIS place is awesome.

I am just keenly aware of and opposed to the pitting of urban districts against each other. I am of the strongly-held conviction that we are all on the same team, or at least should be.

[BDP]

People read WAY too much into some of these statements. Don't look for controversy where it doesn't exist. If anyone understands the dynamics between the sub-sectors of the entire core it is Brooks.

No one has to read very far into that to see it as a comparison to (an)other district(s) he was painting as inferior. That's what he said. It's quite possible he misrepresented himself, but it's certainly not unreasonable for anyone to take it that way. Hey, he has money in it. I don't fault him for trying to sell it. He just did it in a way that made him sound a little ignorant about other DT areas, of which he obviously isn't.

[Just the facts]

I caught that comment and was disappointed by it. It's human nature, I guess, but personally I would rather not see people (especially those with influence) pitting one downtown district against the other. One of the things that makes downtown so appealing is the proximity to other districts. When Midtown improves, it makes things better for people in Deep Deuce, and vice-versa. These districts are not in silos, or a vacuum. One of the things that for instance makes the Metropolitan so appealing is of course its proximity to Automobile Alley/9th, but make no mistake the people there will also value easy access to Deep Deuce, Bricktown, the CBD, Midtown, the health center...CONNECTIONS TO OTHER COOL PLACES is a large part of what makes downtown living appealing.

In the book Suburban Nation the authors point out that in walkable urban neighborhoods, the development of an adjacent walkable urban neighborhood improves both, but in suburbia the development of a new subdivision destroys the qualities that many of the people moved to the first subdivision for. You see it at City Hall when people fight new subdivisions - but you don't see downtown residents crying foul (except a couple of crack-pots in HH) and saying all these new developments are destroying the area. Funny how that works.

[LakeEffect]

In the book Suburban Nation the authors point out that in walkable urban neighborhoods, the development of an adjacent walkable urban neighborhood improves both, but in suburbia the development of a new subdivision destroys the qualities that many of the people moved to the first subdivision for. You see it at City Hall when people fight new subdivisions - but you don't see downtown residents crying foul (except a couple of crack-pots in HH) and saying all these new developments are destroying the area. Funny how that works.

Well, you did when Heritage Hills residents spoke out against the Edge...

[Tier2City]

Well, you did when Heritage Hills residents spoke out against the Edge...

And the Streetcar.

[betts]

Actually, it's a dig at Midtown, unless he was misquoted. He's saying it is hard to argue that midtown offers the best.... In other words, its easy to argue that it doesn't. Regardless, he's a developer and they're going to promote the locations they've selected. Site availability is one of the bigger factors in that decision- making process, as lots of land is no longer available.

[soonerguru]

No one has to read very far into that to see it as a comparison to (an)other district(s) he was painting as inferior. That's what he said. It's quite possible he misrepresented himself, but it's certainly not unreasonable for anyone to take it that way. Hey, he has money in it. I don't fault him for trying to sell it. He just did it in a way that made him sound a little ignorant about other DT areas, of which he obviously isn't.

All good points, but he also has money on Deep Deuce / Bricktown, too, so if anything, it was just a poorly worded celebration of his latest development.

[catch22]

Yes. He's saying Midtown is the farthest away from "arriving" in his mind and that this development will greatly assist in that.

[Teo9969]

No.

Full quote:

“It's hard to argue that Midtown offers the best quality of life for downtown residents right now if you're wanting more than just an apartment and a couple of restaurants,” Brooks said. “We have a lot larger mix of restaurants, bars, shops and employers right now. I loved it already, obviously, with me already building The Edge.”

He's juxtaposing Midtown, with a large mix of restaurants, bars, shops and employers already, to that one district that doesn't have anything but apartments and a couple of restaurants (which describes DD in its present state to a tee)

[betts]

Then his statement is grammatically incorrect. But whatever. I agree with Urbanized. Midtown is not in a vacuum. It wouldn't be what it is without the CBD, Bricktown and Deep Deuce. And, you can walk or ride the streetcar (eventually) between them. I feel like they're all one big great area that has a lot to offer.

[mugofbeer]

This type of project is just what is needed to get the mid- area to the critical mass just as we've seen in Bricktown. More projects that are successful will make it easier for future projects to get off the ground with financing so the redevelopment can move south and west.

[zookeeper]

People read WAY too much into some of these statements. Don't look for controversy where it doesn't exist. If anyone understands the dynamics between the sub-sectors of the entire core it is Brooks.

I agree with Rover here. It sounds to me like some DD residents reading all the good things happening in Midtown, and having it singled out as a place where a lot is happening, triggered some too quick emotional responses. Really, today's announcement of a 323 apartment tower makes it Midtown's day. I wouldn't give it another thought as DD has more big things right around the corner. I agree that rivalries between districts just blocks apart are not good for the central city dynamic as a whole. But, I saw a harmless comment turned into a lot of statements that sounded like a rivalry (protectionist, defensive) in response. In the long run, this was a big day for us all.

[Teo9969]

I agree with Rover here. It sounds to me like some DD residents reading all the good things happening in Midtown, and having it singled out as a place where a lot is happening, triggered some too quick emotional responses. Really, today's announcement of a 323 apartment tower makes it Midtown's day. I wouldn't give it another thought as DD has more big things right around the corner. I agree that rivalries between districts just blocks apart are not good for the central city dynamic as a whole. But, I saw a harmless comment turned into a lot of statements that sounded like a rivalry (protectionist, defensive) in response. In the long run, this was a big day for us all.

I live off 46th/Classen so clearly I don't have a personal dog in this discussion. I hope both MT and DD do well.

That being said, if you're the least bit informed and the slightest bit capable of reading the English language, it's quite clear what Gary Brooks said: "Midtown > Deep Deuce". There is really no skirting around the issue. And that's okay, because GB is heavily invest at this point (to the tune of >$50M) in Midtown, and has $0 in DD.

You don't need to apologize for what GB clearly said...it's unfortunate, but not an issue that is going to change the overall landscape of DT. I understand why he made the comment...he needs to promote MT...it's just unfortunate that he couched it over against Deep Deuce rather than over against any number of OKC areas that are less deserving of leases than downtown.

[GDon]

I'll apologize for my own remarks, which I readily do now. I'm certain Steve quoted me accurately, although I don't recall the context of the statement. We were engaged in an hour long conversation, and many topics involving downtown were discussed. That said, the comment was not intended to slam any section do downtown, specially not Deep Deuce. Fact is, the success of DD is the only reason The Edge, Steelyard, and 10th & Shartel will exist. DD, and the thousands of stakeholders who made it happen, set the tone for being able to justify other housing in downtown. The strong core that we all want requires all areas to be successful and ultimately be one seamless story of the high quality of life that many of us have only dreamed amount up till now. Regardless of the context, my statement was inappropriate and I apologize. I will gladly build in DD if the right opportunity becomes available. In the meantime, I'll stick to development and stay out of politics.

[Urbanized]

I don't live (or work) in Deep Deuce. If anything I live at the northern edge of Midtown, although technically I live in Heritage Hills. There is literally NOTHING for me to get defensive about. It's highly likely that it was just a casually-though-out, flippant and poor-worded comment on his part, and a minor one at that. I've done the same thing more times than I can count. He doesn't have to prove that he is interested the success of downtown in general; his investments have already done that for him. Let's move on.

[Pete]

I'll apologize for my own remarks, which I readily do now. I'm certain Steve quoted me accurately, although I don't recall the context of the statement. We were engaged in an hour long conversation, and many topics involving downtown were discussed. That said, the comment was not intended to slam any section do downtown, specially not Deep Deuce. Fact is, the success of DD is the only reason The Edge, Steelyard, and 10th & Shartel will exist. DD, and the thousands of stakeholders who made it happen, set the tone for being able to justify other housing in downtown. The strong core that we all want requires all areas to be successful and ultimately be one seamless story of the high quality of life that many of us have only dreamed amount up till now. Regardless of the context, my statement was inappropriate and I apologize. I will gladly build in DD if the right opportunity becomes available. In the meantime, I'll stick to development and stay out of politics.

Welcome to the site, Gary.

And much respect to you for going the extra mile to make your developments good fits for their respective neighborhoods.


In Steve's article, Milhaus mentioned wanting to do more in OKC... Would you be partnering with them for any future developments in town?

[GDon]

Yes. The Milhaus folks are highly talented entrepreneurs. We complement each other well, and I expect us to press each other to build projects that OKC will be proud of...in all areas of downtown.

[soonerguru]

I live off 46th/Classen so clearly I don't have a personal dog in this discussion. I hope both MT and DD do well.

That being said, if you're the least bit informed and the slightest bit capable of reading the English language, it's quite clear what Gary Brooks said: "Midtown > Deep Deuce". There is really no skirting around the issue. And that's okay, because GB is heavily invest at this point (to the tune of >$50M) in Midtown, and has $0 in DD.

You don't need to apologize for what GB clearly said...it's unfortunate, but not an issue that is going to change the overall landscape of DT. I understand why he made the comment...he needs to promote MT...it's just unfortunate that he couched it over against Deep Deuce rather than over against any number of OKC areas that are less deserving of leases than downtown.

This is misleading. He has a huge apartment investment at the southern border of Deep Deuce.

[Pete]

Yes. The Milhaus folks are highly talented entrepreneurs. We complement each other well, and I expect us to press each other to build projects that OKC will be proud of...in all areas of downtown.

Excellent.

Any thoughts about building some for-sale units?

Seems like there is lots of pent-up demand, especially in Midtown.