Preftakes Block

[hoya]

It's not a mid-rise dude.

[John]

One quote from the article that has stuck with me was one from Jon Pickard:

“We want something that will be supportive of a great skyline. And in my perception, the shape of a great skyline is the pyramid where Devon will be the peak of the pyramid for a couple of years, maybe more.”

Perhaps Continental is already working with Pickard Chilton on plans for their taller than Devon headquarters?

[Plutonic Panda]

That's a really bad strategy for building cities.

Because in a couple decades, everyone will want to live in the Muchbetterthancrappyville rather than your Justbetterthancrappyville.

What's happening in super-ultra-megabetterthancrappyville?

[JRod1980]

One quote from the article that has stuck with me was one from Jon Pickard:



Perhaps Continental is already working with Pickard Chilton on plans for their taller than Devon headquarters?

I caught that also, but I don't think Continental will ever reach Devon's size in workforce. I could be wrong, but I don't think its likely.

They would likely have to partner with another large company if they wanted to build something taller than the Devon Tower, but again I could be wrong on that also.

[hoya]

One quote from the article that has stuck with me was one from Jon Pickard:



Perhaps Continental is already working with Pickard Chilton on plans for their taller than Devon headquarters?

I noticed that too. I'm not sure what he meant exactly, but there was clear indication that something else really big may be coming along in the future.

My guess is that if these 5 new buildings are successful (the PC one will be -- Devon and BOK are going to fill it up immediately), we'll see a lot more out of state money pour into the city. If our class A office occupancy rate remains at like 90%+, and our economy stays strong (especially if we survive this oil downturn without missing a beat -- that will definitely improve investor confidence), and if those two residential highrises fill up, then it won't be long until we see several more towers under construction. They may not be as tall as Devon, but it won't stick out like it does now anymore.

[JRod1980]

See "not livable": https://twitter.com/shanehamp/status/544623857189920771

Exactly. Along with parking garages that will be basically border the east and north sides of a brand new elementary school.

Suddenly I'm starting to think that they elementary school was built in the wrong location.

[PhiAlpha]

I caught that also, but I don't think Continental will ever reach Devon's size in workforce. I could be wrong, but I don't think its likely.

They would likely have to partner with another large company if they wanted to build something taller than the Devon Tower, but again I could be wrong on that also.

Continental added 500+ to their workforce downtown and are about 20% the size of Devon. They've only been really aggressive in their growth since moving to OKC. Their market cap is about half of Devon's right now, but back when oil was between $80-$100 per bbl, they were much closer in market cap size. With excellent, growing positions in two great oil plays, they could definitely get close to Devon's size over the next 5-10 years. I think it will largely be dependent on the price of oil though.

[Spartan]

Statements like this are condescending and hurt the image of new urbanists. Why some feel you have to trash others to make a point and to try to feel superior is beyond me. Egos get out of control I guess.

While JTF makes a point that I think we all can agree on, that street interaction is more important than sheer height, it is done in a very offensive way. This from someone so dedicated to urban fabric they live in a suburb of Jacksonville. LOL

While you have a point and I'm not defending Kerry's occasionally-dogmatic viewpoints (or my own, as I too should distance myself better from looking dogmatic), it can be frustrating being a new urbanist (or any kind of urbanist) in our current system which is so heavily stacked in favor of unsustainable sprawl. We can all agree that we are generally moving in the right direction and good things are starting to happen, but we also all know that 1, OKC still has a ways to go to get where we want; and 2, we could stop taking a few steps back for once. Progress shouldn't cancel itself out.

[OkieNate]

Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is it about these building that make them "historic"? I'm asking honestly, not to be a jerk. Did important things happen here? Or just because they are old they are "historic"? They knocked down Original Yankee Stadium for crying out loud. Demolition and rebuilding is what Americans do. If someone wants to move out of OKC or choose not to live here because we have a block of our DT with parking garages surrounding it on three sides, So be it, you wont be missed. Im very much looking forward to this extension of Devon and to the new life it will breathe into and around the area! Go OKC!

[Rover]

While you have a point and I'm not defending Kerry's occasionally-dogmatic viewpoints (or my own, as I too should distance myself better from looking dogmatic), it can be frustrating being a new urbanist (or any kind of urbanist) in our current system which is so heavily stacked in favor of unsustainable sprawl. We can all agree that we are generally moving in the right direction and good things are starting to happen, but we also all know that 1, OKC still has a ways to go to get where we want; and 2, we could stop taking a few steps back for once. Progress shouldn't cancel itself out.

Thanks. I think you bring a pragmatic but progressive view to making an area better and more urban. I think we can all agree that we keep shooting ourselves in the foot to some degree, but it isn't all gloom and doom. OKC was PITIFUL and suffering from huge mistakes. And, while we still are making mistakes, we are also making improvements. Anyone who can't see that just isn't looking. I think outside investors required to do great things are now appearing on the scene and we do have some leverage...but we need more. It has been a long road to bring OKC real estate to respectability and I think sometimes we are afraid to apply the new-found leverage we have.

[KayneMo]

I realize nothing will probably change, but I really wanted to express how I imagine this project to be.

Street frontage with office/retail, about 11 to 12 floors of parking, and the 27-floor building on top. I made the garage narrower to fit among the buildings but I wanted to keep the tower's footprint relatively the same, so that resulted in overhangs! Really interesting and completely do-able. I didn't account for the other garage though.

[hoya]

What makes them historic?

They are (1) old buildings, that represent (2) a specific period in history, (3) and a style of architecture and construction (4) that is no longer in use, and (5) is of limited quantity in the city.

No one is going to care if you tear down a 1970s strip mall. We have them all over the city. They are not that old, they are certainly not rare, and we're still making new strip malls of pretty much the same style today. On the other hand, the Hotel Black was featured on postcards back in the old days. They are both made out of brick and masonry in a way that nobody does anymore. The Motor Hotel is still in use right this second, and the Hotel Black still had businesses in it earlier this year. Both are perfectly serviceable right this instant.

[Pete]

WThere are no cities that have successfully developed their downtown core after this proposed pattern and succeeded. So why is the dissension cast in such a negative light? And since we know that low-density downtowns don't thrive, why are there not more people outraged? I get that it's hard to tie the taxpayer dollar to inefficient design. But I think the urban vs. suburban argument fatigue is puzzling. Are humans that enamored with shiny new objects?

There is obviously a pretty decent grass roots movement towards solid urbanism practices and several developers who have taken it upon themselves to do things the 'right' way.

But what is clearly lacking is the leadership on these issues among people with most the power and influence.

There is a big difference between giving urbanism lip service and actually driving the change. Which of our government and private leaders are doing this right now? [crickets]


There is lots of talk about investment and public and private partnership and thus far that has worked very well for OKC. But when it comes to the mayor, City Council, the City Manager and his direct reports and the key private sector players like Larry Nichols, absolutely no one is walking the walk when it comes to upholding tried-and-true good urbanism. As someone else said, we know the right thing to do (there have been hundreds of other communities that have already gone down this road) we just choose not to do it, over and over again.

We take all this time and effort to get public input and create plans and committees... Then it all gets ignored the first time a developer opens his checkbook and claims it will cost too much. You think this doesn't happen in other towns?

And the more we completely circumvent our own rules and standards and ideals (SandRidge, Stage Cener and now this entire block) the more the precedents are set and the more the next guy is going to expect the same treatment.


Real change starts at the top. It takes making somewhat unpopular decisions and sticking to your guns.

We have absolutely no one in a position of power in Oklahoma City doing these things, and thus all you can expect is small little changes brought on by the various district-driven groups and developers who just decide to do it on their own.

[soondoc]

Love it! Could you send that to the City?

That is brilliant. I just spoke with someone at the city council. She encouraged me to email with any concerns with the proposed project in which I just did. Can you PLEASE email this for them to present as an example of what could easily be done? Her email address is lisa.chronister@okc.gov Thank you all, it really could make a difference.

[soondoc]

Love it! Could you send that to the City?

That is brilliant. I just spoke with someone at the city council. She encouraged me to email with any concerns with the proposed project in which I just did. Can you PLEASE email this for them to present as an example of what could easily be done? Her email address is lisa.chronister@okc.gov Thank you all, it really could make a difference.

[soondoc]

I realize nothing will probably change, but I really wanted to express how I imagine this project to be.

Street frontage with office/retail, about 11 to 12 floors of parking, and the 27-floor building on top. I made the garage narrower to fit among the buildings but I wanted to keep the tower's footprint relatively the same, so that resulted in overhangs! Really interesting and completely do-able. I didn't account for the other garage though.

That is brilliant. I just spoke with someone at the city council. She encouraged me to email with any concerns with the proposed project in which I just did. Can you PLEASE email this for them to present as an example of what could easily be done? Her email address is lisa.chronister@okc.gov Thank you all, it really could make a difference.

[BoulderSooner]

Exactly. Along with parking garages that will be basically border the east and north sides of a brand new elementary school.

Suddenly I'm starting to think that they elementary school was built in the wrong location.

Except it is not true. If street level is what matters that shot has 1 site that faces a parking garage.

[TU 'cane]

Hey folks.

I highly suggest everyone make contact and send out emails to official representatives immediately voicing your concerns; the sooner, the better.
I do not want to tread into the affairs of another city, but in all honesty I feel like I've spent so much time in OKC and also truly want what will help make it "big league" that I almost feel obligated to contact your representatives as well.
I think most of us would feel better even if it were set to the height mentioned a couple times already of 499 feet (to match the address), or even make it a shade above 500 to crown it the second tallest in the city. I know it seems we're being picky about something such as building height, but these buildings are the first thing people see. They leave an impression.

[OKCRT]

I really like the project and just wish there was a way to keep the black hotel. But this project along with Clayco will really change that part of downtown for the better. It was not long ago when all you would see in this area was the homeless looking for a handout. This project is good for the city. Wish they would add another 5-10 floors to help balance the skyline a little better though. The auto hotel just doesn't do anything for me. I have no idea why some on here are even wasting their energy talking about that building. It's an Auto Hotel. They will be building a new parking garage. What's the deal? Is there something about the auto hotel that we don't know about?

[KayneMo]

I realize nothing will probably change, but I really wanted to express how I imagine this project to be.

Street frontage with office/retail, about 11 to 12 floors of parking, and the 27-floor building on top. I made the garage narrower to fit among the buildings but I wanted to keep the tower's footprint relatively the same, so that resulted in overhangs! Really interesting and completely do-able. I didn't account for the other garage though.

I forgot to mention that, in this scenario, the total height is just over 570'.

[Stickman]

I really like the project and just wish there was a way to keep the black hotel. But this project along with Clayco will really change that part of downtown for the better. It was not long ago when all you would see in this area was the homeless looking for a handout. This project is good for the city. Wish they would add another 5-10 floors to help balance the skyline a little better though. The auto hotel just doesn't do anything for me. I have no idea why some on here are even wasting their energy talking about that building. It's an Auto Hotel. They will be building a new parking garage. What's the deal? Is there something about the auto hotel that we don't know about?

AGREE
Before Devon, after 5 pm, no way I would be caught down their. The hints were dropped in this forum 10 days ago. Now every is in an uproar.

[OkieNate]

We did. Is this also how the City feels?



Right. So, good luck with attracting people downtown. Sheesh.



If it was only one block and only one proposal, you might have a point. But just look at the map. It's the prevailing theme of downtown OKC development.

1.) I never implied I speak for the city, yet I don't know who would want someone to live where they don't want to. If OKC is no good at urban living or not up to your par, and that's what you want, go live where that's available, and good for you for being able to have that ability financial and professionally.

2.) Attracting people downtown seems about as easy as it ever been? What do you mean by this?

3.) Where else does this have the potential to happen again DT (three garages on one street)?

[OkieNate]

Okay that's a very solid answer. Hotel Black does have a very neat design and brick scheme. It will be sad to see that go. Yet as someone just stated the motor motel, is literally just knocking down an old garage to build a new one in the grand scheme of things is it not?

[LandArchPoke]

I realize nothing will probably change, but I really wanted to express how I imagine this project to be.

Street frontage with office/retail, about 11 to 12 floors of parking, and the 27-floor building on top. I made the garage narrower to fit among the buildings but I wanted to keep the tower's footprint relatively the same, so that resulted in overhangs! Really interesting and completely do-able. I didn't account for the other garage though.

This site plan should have been common sense, one that a good architect would see. Sadly most architects think very little about the urban fabric and how the building actually fits in with it's surroundings, particularly on street level. If you stacked the parking into the building and saved the existing building and put money into them to actually lease out the ground floor you could lease out around 60,000 square feet of retail. I think almost everyone would be happy to give TIF money for this development if it was to create a better development.

Here's an interesting TED talks, she specifically calls out developers and architects for creating these bleak and unused corporate plazas. Sadly this is exactly the direction this project is taking. The architect did they say were putting chairs in the plaza so it will be active :loll: you have to create an environment people actually want to sit in those chairs first.

Amanda Burden: How public spaces make cities work | Talk Video | TED.com

[Plutonic Panda]

We did. Is this also how the City feels?



Right. So, good luck with attracting people downtown. Sheesh.



If it was only one block and only one proposal, you might have a point. But just look at the map. It's the prevailing theme of downtown OKC development.

You mean the thousands of new housing units that are coming to downtown and filling up faster than they can be built type of attracting people downtown? Come on! People are being attracted to downtown.