Convention Center

[HangryHippo]

I'd like to know the reasoning for all the angles/curves. They seem like meaningless architectural va-va-voom.

Emphatic +1!

[GaryOKC6]

LOL. Thanks for the shout out.

As for the Devon tower, I am sure this is just another Larry Nichols ego move and a conspiracy by the city fathers and anti urban fat cats. That's the only answer.


It seems like there is no acceptable answer to some except to just cancel the CC, cancel parking garages, cancel getting businesses downtown, and just make everything a big apartment complex.

This plan seems like it can be tweaked to provide the urbanist elements needed, but is otherwise a fairly pragmatic solution. It reduces sight blockage between the parks a great deal and gets us a nice full service hotel facility in downtown in a very serviceable and accessible area. It allows us to use the Cox until this is complete and then to tear it down and re-develop that site with better urban design and utilization. It isn't urbana nirvana, but then we couldn't get agreement as to what that is anyway.

I agree, it seems impossible to make everyone happy. I love the positive aspects of this whole thing. I am looking forward to having a completed convention center with a new hotel. As for the specifics of the plan, I have no control over it and have confidence that it will all turn out fine. I have heard all the negative stuff before with the first MAPS and if some people would have gotten their way. We would not be playing NBA basketball in OKC. No arguments here, just my viewpoint.

[Just the facts]

I only know of 1 person on OKCTalk who has voiced support for or advocated the no-build option.

[soonerguru]

LOL. Thanks for the shout out.

As for the Devon tower, I am sure this is just another Larry Nichols ego move and a conspiracy by the city fathers and anti urban fat cats. That's the only answer.


It seems like there is no acceptable answer to some except to just cancel the CC, cancel parking garages, cancel getting businesses downtown, and just make everything a big apartment complex.

This plan seems like it can be tweaked to provide the urbanist elements needed, but is otherwise a fairly pragmatic solution. It reduces sight blockage between the parks a great deal and gets us a nice full service hotel facility in downtown in a very serviceable and accessible area. It allows us to use the Cox until this is complete and then to tear it down and re-develop that site with better urban design and utilization. It isn't urbana nirvana, but then we couldn't get agreement as to what that is anyway.

Your snide hyperbole is tiresome. Seriously give it a rest.

There are many architects / designers who participate on this board with extensive training and experience. Why ignore people who do this for a living? I'm not aware that your background provides you special insight on the design of large public facilities (correct me if I'm wrong).

And last I checked, this is a discussion board. Your attempt to mute discussion by patronizing nearly everyone who comments here violates the ethos of this community.

[betts]

I think it's a barely acceptable plan made necessary by a poor location, but I'm no architect, just an opinionated person. I think we probably need a new convention center, but I think there are better locations that almost assuredly have cheaper construction costs.

[lasomeday]

I still can't believe they are doing all this design work and they still haven't made an offer for the land.

[adaniel]

^
These are just basic concepts. Very little if any designs have been done. Thats just how big projects work.

[Pete]

They also know the approximate range of land costs, because worse case this would head to eminent domain and arbitration.

They've already gone through this process dozens of times for Central Park and all the previous downtown MAPS projects, so they already have a good idea what they can expect to pay.

No doubt, the owners will ask for some absurd amount, just like with the Santa Fe Station. But the City won't take a lot of time with back-and-forth; they will make what they feel is a good faith offer then pursue legal avenues if they feel the owners are not being reasonable.

[Just the facts]

They also know the approximate range of land costs, because worse case this would head to eminent domain and arbitration.

I wonder what that would do the MAPS III timeline and then what happens if they buy the land and then figure out they can't afford to build any of these underground halls. If it wasn't for the members of the committee being dead-set on underground halls I would think we were in store for one giant bait and switch.

[Teo9969]

The design is a failure if they don't push the convention center to the west at least 70% closer to Hudson. That's a simple fix. Having a "park-like" area line a street is asinine when you can have a park like area be an alley between the Hotel and CC that conveniently connects the MBG and MAPS Park.

This design is also a failure if it inhibits the ability to build on the Hudson/Walker/Boulevard/Reno blocks. A Parking garage on part of that land is acceptable. The unfortunate thing is that the underground exhibit hall is obviously going to impede the potential for any sort of substantive height on the north side of the block.

[Spartan]

The design is a failure if they don't push the convention center to the west at least 70% closer to Hudson. That's a simple fix. Having a "park-like" area line a street is asinine when you can have a park like area be an alley between the Hotel and CC that conveniently connects the MBG and MAPS Park.

This design is also a failure if it inhibits the ability to build on the Hudson/Walker/Boulevard/Reno blocks. A Parking garage on part of that land is acceptable. The unfortunate thing is that the underground exhibit hall is obviously going to impede the potential for any sort of substantive height on the north side of the block.

Yeah it is sort of bizarre to see the new plaza between Hudson and the CC when the biggest gripe with the whole thing is that it blockades a green strip from connecting core to shore. That's what happens when different parts of this MAPS3 planning process get divided up and contracted out to out of state planners who have no idea our goals as a community and haven't been a part of any holistic planning process.

While I would never call asinine the well-intended efforts of people seeking to build a better OKC in their own way, this convention center is still mushrooming out of a vacuum. This plaza thing, and while "they're just preliminary renderings," if this is a real idea that has any local backing or origination, is strange. By eliminating a problematic dead frontage we could possibly make this CC thing work within the bigger plan/goal of trying to connect core to shore with a landmark green spine.

This and everything else just underscores the question of whether we are serious or not with Core 2 Shore. It's not a question of whether people care, or are competent, or know how to design a convention center - the opposition needs to stop debating that and carry on a more positive dialog - but it is a question of how these MAPS3 pieces connect with each other and with what we've already built in the last 20 years.

I also don't understand why the hotel tower is pushed up toward Sheridan and not the Boulevard. It would seem as though you want to really arrange the massing in a way that builds up the Boulevard frontage, if we're serious about having a landmark Boulevard. I understand that the hotel model is the most tentative in nature of all these moving pieces, but in most cases when a city such as OKC does an RFP for hotel operators (which we'll have to dig deep and find some funding first) the planning model moves forward and evolved throughout the process, so the design will likely evolve from what we have here.

That was the case with Dallas' Omni Hotel. Indy also recently did a CC hotel and their RFP process was vastly different, with each hotel operator submitting their own designs along with specs and financing proposal. I tend to think OKC would go more of the Dallas route, although the Indy route would ensure a process in which there is more competition and creativity, and allow the public vetting to take into account all of these issues comparatively rather than just from reading a report paid for by the Chamber.

[MParker]

Being in the Hotel and Restaurant business for several years, I couldn't agree more with your observations. Including the Chamber to assist in decision making and to analyze the competitive climate would be the first step in the right direction. Does OKC have the demand for a Convention Center?

[Larry OKC]

Spartan: may need to update your signature...Gary Marrs has left the building!

[MustangGT]

Does OKC have the demand for a Convention Center?

Excellent question. Too bad it is being ignored. As to the CC hotel ZERO public money should be involved. It will be interesting how much crow if any will be served on this forum and in the public domain if the CC is not a rousing success from day one?

[BoulderSooner]

Excellent question. Too bad it is being ignored. As to the CC hotel ZERO public money should be involved. It will be interesting how much crow if any will be served on this forum and in the public domain if the CC is not a rousing success from day one?

our current CC is being used and it is an embarrassment for a city our size to have such an outdated facility (to just stay relevant we need a new facility) .. as to the CC hotel .. it should be and will be partially (at least) publicly funded

[Just the facts]

Excellent question. Too bad it is being ignored. As to the CC hotel ZERO public money should be involved. It will be interesting how much crow if any will be served on this forum and in the public domain if the CC is not a rousing success from day one?

We should be able to capture close to 100% of the current Cox events. Beyond that I am not really sure what our target market is. However, I do know the Cox is sitting on some prime land that will produce 10X as much revenue to the city in the hands of the private sector as it does now.

[CaptDave]

However, I do know the Cox is sitting on some prime land that will produce 10X as much revenue to the city in the hands of the private sector as it does now.

Unfortunately the same thing will be said about the site chosen for the new CC. Although I think a modern CC will be a positive thing for OKC, I am still puzzled by the site selected. I think Mayor Cornett's preferred location was and is far better.

[Just the facts]

I'm not worried about the location of the new convention center. It isn't going on the Ford dealer site. It will end up going either in East Bricktown or right where the Mayor said.

[CaptDave]

I hope you are proven correct JTF.

[Jchaser405]

Can you refresh my mind to where the mayor wanted the CC located? Was it the mill site? And, is their a graphic for prior considered locations?

[CaptDave]

Can you refresh my mind to where the mayor wanted the CC located? Was it the mill site? And, is their a graphic for prior considered locations?

Mayor Cornett preferred a site south of Chesapeake Arena and to the east of the MAPS3 park. This was the reason for including approx $30 million in MAPS for a contingency fund to relocate an OG&E substation.

That site simplifies many design issues such as loading dock location (facing BNSF viaduct) and would permit more money to be invested in making the CC a high quality venue.

[Jchaser405]

Thanks CaptDave

[Rover]

But many on here bashed the mayor's idea. Acted like it was a good ole boy move. Doesn't look so bad now, I guess.

[CaptDave]

But many on here bashed the mayor's idea. Acted like it was a good ole boy move. Doesn't look so bad now, I guess.

I suppose there were some who didn't like that site, but I think the majority of people would prefer it over the Ford site. A poster, BG918, posted an excellent conceptual drawing of how a cc would fit the site south of the arena. Maybe it will end up there after all is said and done.

[Geographer]

I don't really care for the current site myself...south of the Peake Arena would have been more ideal, IMO.

But of course, I don't like the CC idea in general haha...creates another super block...and im quite skeptical of the prospects of conventions in the next 20 years or so.