Council resolution to accept 5% paycut

[andy157]

Well for one there would no longer be any use tax to collect, two you would have had lots of young professionals moving out of state if the city didn't cast a vision going forward. A "No" vote on MAPS would have been that the citizens no longer believed in the City's future, thus more tax revenue headed out of state. I know people that are more dedicated like myself probably wouldn't have been as conscious as much about spending my disposable income in OKC proper and not Edmond, Moore and other suburbs, so again even more tax revenue to the suburbs and less to OKC proper. I know many people who make an effort to buy in OKC to get the MAPS coffers up instead of suburbs.

Let me see if I've got this straight. Being that your such a dedicated citizen, you will make an effort to spend your money in OKC as long as you get your way. I'll bet as a kid you picked up lots of marbles.

[Mikemarsh51]

Lordgerald, you are funny. Actually we were awarded a 1.4% raise. You can look it up on OSCN.net. You can read the cities ridiculous arguments as to how it is the Firefighters fault about why they bargained in bad faith. Remember they voted to spend an additional $90,000.00 dollars to fight us for that 1.4% and that is obviously a good use of tax money! Remember we have tried to give that raise back.

[Mikemarsh51]

LordGerald, you are correct. We did not predict it. The city budget director did.

Now to the raise that you are so excited about.

The firefighters have tried to at least 3 times give back. We understand the economy is bad and dont want the raise. So get over that

But there is this pesky little thing about an unfair labor practice. Bear with me I will type slow so you can keep up. At this point the city will not agree to anything until we remove any reference to them being found guilty of an unfair labor practice. They broke the rules and cant own up to it. So tell me who is holding up the process. It is your unfallible city that's who!

[metro]

Let me see if I've got this straight. Being that your such a dedicated citizen, you will make an effort to spend your money in OKC as long as you get your way. I'll bet as a kid you picked up lots of marbles.

It's a little more complicated than that. OKC is at a make or break point with young professionals. If OKC had not passed MAPS 3, you would have seen many move away, probably including myself if I could convince the wife to move away from family. As many have complained in numerous threads on this site, it's bad enough knowingly waiting and trying to be a part of the process of OKC taking a few more decades before we reach major league amenities versus moving away if the yahoos can't cast a good enough vision and plan for the future and moving to a location who is decades ahead of OKC and live with the quality of life that so many want. Many young, single professionals simply would not have wanted to waste their lives hoping that a MAPS 3 would come again some day.

[Mikemarsh51]

Metro, you have got to be kidding. That is a presumptous load of crap! You are saying that if the whole city voted against further improvements the yuppies would be gone. You do realize that all of the Maps have done nothing for anywhere but downtown save for the schools. I seem to see alot of growth all over the city. Maybe you do need to go, because this city is alot more than just the downtown area.

You never responded to what I said about all the growth we have seen so far!

[barnold]

HEHEHEHE.....all I can say as i sit back and watch from my front porch is "I told you so".....We've all known that the economy has been in a downturn. The Mayor said that a vote for MAPS 3 would actually enable more police and firefighters to be hired. Come on Steve.....where you at? Journalistic reporting at it's finest. Get in there tiger. Did they Mayor lie? Did they council just let the mayor hang himself? How will Couch justify laying off police and fire? MAPS 3 was going to be the shot in the economic arm that saves us all.....BS... I got to say it once again.....I told you so........sorry, I'm done gloating now.

[ljbab728]

[QUOTE=Mikemarsh51;314650]You do realize that all of the Maps have done nothing for anywhere but downtown save for the schools. I seem to see alot of growth all over the city.
[QUOTE]

Mike, I'm not really sure what your point is here. This seems to be a contradictory statement.

[Mikemarsh51]

ljbab728, that was directed towards metro, who was saying if Maps3 had failed there was going to be a mass yuppie exodus from OKC. My point was there is more to OKC than just Maps related items. All of which I had vigorusly supported. You should read more of these threads.

[David]

The public safety unions lost my support when it became apparent during the Maps 3 election that their opposition was nothing more then a bargaining tactic.

Or is the following letter somehow a fake?

[metro]

Metro, you have got to be kidding. That is a presumptous load of crap! You are saying that if the whole city voted against further improvements the yuppies would be gone. You do realize that all of the Maps have done nothing for anywhere but downtown save for the schools. I seem to see alot of growth all over the city. Maybe you do need to go, because this city is alot more than just the downtown area.

You never responded to what I said about all the growth we have seen so far!

You can lead a horse to water but................. I'm glad guys like you that can't see it aren't leading this city.

[Mikemarsh51]

David, sadly you are uninformed and you ignorance is showing. Contract talks were already at a impasse and had gone to arbitration when the vote was held. In no way could the two be tied together. So be a man and tell all the Cops and Firefighters you see on the street that you do not support them.

Metro, you are being a good liberal by refusing to accept that someone my have a differing opinion than you and might want to voice it. Squash that opposition!!!!

[David]

David, sadly you are uninformed and you ignorance is showing. Contract talks were already at a impasse and had gone to arbitration when the vote was held. In no way could the two be tied together. So be a man and tell all the Cops and Firefighters you see on the street that you do not support them.

This post does nothing to explain that letter. Care to try again, this time without dodging the question and without the personal attack?

[metro]

Mike you clearly do not know me, as I am anything but a liberal.

[Mikemarsh51]

Now Dave, ignorance means lack of knowledge. Sorry if that hurt your feelings!

I have never seen that letter, I am part of the fire dept. I do know that the city did not commit an unfair labor practice on the PD. That put us in different situations. What I do remember is the city waited past the deadline the PD gave them. Which meant it would be too late to stop the advertising campain.

[David]

Now Dave, ignorance means lack of knowledge. Sorry if that hurt your feelings!

I have never seen that letter, I am part of the fire dept. I do know that the city did not commit an unfair labor practice on the PD. That put us in different situations. What I do remember is the city waited past the deadline the PD gave them. Which meant it would be too late to stop the advertising campain.

Naw, it was the whole bit about "So be a man and tell all the Cops and Firefighters you see on the street that you do not support them." that I considered a personal attack. If it was not meant as such then you have my apologies for that assumption.

I just have a hard time listening to arguments from the NotThisMaps crowd when at least part of that crowd was willing to drop their opposition contingent on their contract negotiations. That tells me that at least for them, all of the sound and fury about bad timing was just that.

[Mikemarsh51]

Now you have some facts, the FD is locked in a battle with the city over a contract that is about to expire. I can't speak for the PD.

I was telling you to stand by your words. I don't see anything wrong with encouraging you to do so. I on many, many occasions get to hear what the people think. My only response is to tell them to have a nice day. Filling the boot for Jerrys kids is a prime example of when people express themselves. My Dad is one of Jerrys kids and I certainly don't enjoy the blast of crap we get sometimes. Have a nice day!

[OKCGUY3]

Seems funny to me that Oklahoma City has a 3/4 Cent sales tax providing roughly $70million a year to public safety, and the OCFD is below average in pay compared to 10 like sized departments and cities that do not enjoy a $70 million bump every year. Yet Most of those cities got a small raise last year and we in OKC are talking about laying off a large number of our Firefighters. Seems that someone isn't telling the truth about where money is being spent.

[Wambo36]

Naw, it was the whole bit about "So be a man and tell all the Cops and Firefighters you see on the street that you do not support them." that I considered a personal attack. If it was not meant as such then you have my apologies for that assumption.

I just have a hard time listening to arguments from the NotThisMaps crowd when at least part of that crowd was willing to drop their opposition contingent on their contract negotiations. That tells me that at least for them, all of the sound and fury about bad timing was just that.

Let me preface this with a disclaimer. I am not a police officer nor do I play one on TV. I have no inside information on the dealings between the FOP and the city. But I don't think that's going to be necessary in this case.

David, read the whole document and not just the highlighted area. If you read the first paragragh, you'll notice that it is a response to a proposal from the city. These proposals are always kept inside the meeting room until they are agreed upon by both groups. Most of the proposals, put forth in negotiations, never see the light of day because they are dismissed by one or the other parties. That being said, I wonder why we don't see these proposals in the newspaper every year during negotiations? Maybe because that's not the way these things are, or ever have been, done. The problem is that Mr. Moore neglected to take into account who he was dealing with and the lengths they would go to to make the FOP look bad.

The deal, proposed by the city, apparently would have taken care of the primary concern of the FOP, in that it addressed the manpower problem that they have. If you read the rest of the document, it would also have taken care of the future manpower problems. These concerns were what I understood to be their primary problem with the MAPS election. Remove those concerns and it's not suprising that they remove their opposition to MAPS, is it?

[David]

I was telling you to stand by your words. I don't see anything wrong with encouraging you to do so. I on many, many occasions get to hear what the people think. My only response is to tell them to have a nice day. Filling the boot for Jerrys kids is a prime example of when people express themselves. My Dad is one of Jerrys kids and I certainly don't enjoy the blast of crap we get sometimes. Have a nice day!

Well it rather sounded like you were telling me to go pick a fight with either a Policeman or a Fireman to prove my manhood, which really seems like a bad idea.

Let me preface this with a disclaimer. I am not a police officer nor do I play one on TV. I have no inside information on the dealings between the FOP and the city. But I don't think that's going to be necessary in this case.

David, read the whole document and not just the highlighted area. You'll notice that it is a response to a proposal from the city. These proposals are always kept inside the meeting room until they are agreed upon by both groups. Most of the proposals, put forth in negotiations, never see the light of day because they are dismissed by one or the other parties. That being said, I wonder why we don't see these proposals in the newspaper every year during negotiations? Maybe because that's not the way these things are done.

The problem is that Mr. Moore neglected to take into account who he was dealing with and the lengths they would go to to make the FOP look bad. The deal proposed by the city apparently would have taken care of the primary concern of the FOP, in that it addressed the manpower problem that they have. If you read the rest of the document, it would also have taken care of the future manpower problems. These concerns were what I understood to be their primary problem with the MAPS election. Remove those concerns and it's not suprising that they remove their opposition to MAPS, is it?

I did read all of the document and not just the highlighted area, but thank you for that suggestion. However, it doesn't actually change my opinion of their willingness to drop their opposition to Maps 3 if the contract negotiations had played out differently.

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

If the Fire and Police Depts are going to bring about layoffs, I think that we should start with the Fire and Police stations downtown. Most of the patrons whom are on this site have made claim that F and P are not needed downtown anyway. Careful what you wish for you just might get it.

[Wambo36]

This post does nothing to explain that letter. Care to try again, this time without dodging the question and without the personal attack?

Well, my post did address the letter and you seem not to want to answer any of the questions I posed. Why did the city decide to release this when it never has before? Why, if this agreement addressed the concerns that put the FOP at odds with the MAPS election, is it suprising that they would drop their opposition?
I doubt any amount of explanation would change your opinion. You don't seem to understand the negotiation process that the city and the employee associations go through every year, so my explaining the process probably won't mean much to you. The fact that the city has been caught breaking the rules,once again, probably doesn't do too much to sway your opinion either. It speaks to their character or lack thereof.

[David]

Well, my post did address the letter and you seem not to want to answer any of the questions I posed. I doubt any amount of explanation would change your opinion. You don't seem to understand the negotiation process that the city and the employee associations go through every year, so my explaining the process probably won't mean much to you. The fact that the city has been caught breaking the rules,once again, probably doesn't do too much to sway your opinion either. It speaks to their character or lack thereof.

I can find two questions in your last post:

That being said, I wonder why we don't see these proposals in the newspaper every year during negotiations?

This one is either not addressed to me, or is not something I can answer as I am neither a mind reader or privy to the decisions of whoever in the city government released it.

Remove those concerns and it's not suprising that they remove their opposition to MAPS, is it?

This one I thought I did, but I will try again. I do not believe that they should have been allowing those concerns to stand in the way of Maps 3 in the first place. Using opposition to a 7 year improvement program like Maps as a bargaining chip in a single year's round of negotiations? Are you kidding me?

[OKCGUY3]

Are you kidding me? MAPS 3 OPPOSITION WAS NOT USED AS A BARGAINING CHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Do you not get it? The opposition was because there was a looming problem with funding for public safety that the city was not being forthcoming about at the time. And here we are today, facing the public safety cuts and problems that Police and Fire were worried about prior to Maps 3. What happened to "the passing of Maps 3 will add firefighters and police officers" "we will have the best trained, best equipped, and best compensated firefighters in the region" blah blah lies..... Your perception of why Police and Fire were against maps is directly from the public spin campaign put on to pass Maps 3 regardless of the accuracy of the Police and Fire claims. It was not a bargaining chip for a raise. I guess yo ucould stretch it and say it was a bargaining chip to adress current drastic problems with things we need, before moving on to a wish list of things that we want. I am glad Maps passed, I think it will be great, but what about the shortfalls for public safety?

[OKCGUY3]

Isn't it strange how many people have posted on here with such zeal and passion in favor of getting Maps passed to keep our city moving in the right direction, yet most have not put any effort or concern at all into the fact that our City Manager is talking about laying off 250 Police and Firefighters? Why aren't we all calling our city leaders every day telling them to use some of the contingency fund or use tax, instead of threatening lay offs? I thought we all wanted our city to prosper and do well, step up and voice your passionate concern for the problem at hand. Show some of that zeal to keep moving the City forward.

[metro]

No, considering the FNP shot themselves in the foot with their opposition to MAPS. I'm actually surprised we're not hearing more "I told ya it'd come back to bite ya's."