OKC Police & Fire needs

[kevinpate]

I'm not anti-union, and I'm not most assuredly anti civil servant (having served our state from 89-06).

However, some comments throughout recent threads, and here, strike me as thinking some of the union membership might wanna begin wondering if their reps actually have their best interests in mind.

weird strategy, at least to me.

[andy157]

I'm not anti-union, and I'm not most assuredly anti civil servant (having served our state from 89-06).

However, some comments throughout recent threads, and here, strike me as thinking some of the union membership might wanna begin wondering if their reps actually have their best interests in mind.

weird strategy, at least to me.

Kevinpate, there is no need whatsoever for the Union membership to begin to wonder if their Union Reps have their(the members) best interest in mind. Why? Because, the Maps 3 opposition position was not an arbitrary decsion made by Union leadership and forced upon the members. In fact, it was just the opposite.

The opposition to Maps 3 by the leadership of the Union is the result of an abolute mandate from the supream authority of the Union, the members. The members where assembled, given their options along with the pros and cons to each of those options, given the opportunity to speak for or against those options. Then, using their right to a Democratic process voted unanimously to oppose Maps 3.

[kevinpate]

So, after rallying folks together and hashing it out, the one single best available strategy was decided, without dissent, to be go forth and vocally oppose the extension of a temporary sales tax?

Ok, let's say your folks are wildly successful, stunning everyone.

Let's say supporters take to the streets, the malls, blogs, broadcast venues and church steps and proclaim
NO GROWTH UNTIL WE HAVE MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

WHATTA WE WANT?
MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
WHEN WE WANT THEM?
NOW!

HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

Let's say it catches on so fast, so huge that teabaggers begin to hurl themselves off bridges in envy and every last Ogle says "wow, well played!"

Let's say straw polls show a resounding 68% plan to vote down MAPs3 and do so specifically because they heard your call for bodies before growth.

Then what?

I'm not agin ya.
I'm not a MAPs3 cheerleader, though I think some of it is rather awesome.

I am curious by nature though, and the present approach is, to me anyways, more than a wee bit curious.

Edumacate me. Some folks swear it is possible to do. Others, they ain't so sure.

[David]

Kevinpate, there is no need whatsoever for the Union membership to begin to wonder if their Union Reps have their(the members) best interest in mind. Why? Because, the Maps 3 opposition position was not an arbitrary decsion made by Union leadership and forced upon the members. In fact, it was just the opposite.

The opposition to Maps 3 by the leadership of the Union is the result of an abolute mandate from the supream authority of the Union, the members. The members where assembled, given their options along with the pros and cons to each of those options, given the opportunity to speak for or against those options. Then, using their right to a Democratic process voted unanimously to oppose Maps 3.

Who prompted the assembly to happen in the first place?

Also, I have a very hard time believing you that it was a unanimous decision. Did anyone abstain from voting?

[Midtowner]

Who prompted the assembly to happen in the first place?

Also, I have a very hard time believing you that it was a unanimous decision. Did anyone abstain from voting?

I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.

[David]

I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.

Oh, I wasn't thinking about the fact that it was probably an open vote. Not exactly a supportive environment for dissenting opinions in that case.

[lump9816]

To Mid and others, I'm new to this board as I've pretty much been a lurker reading for quite some time now. But to all of you who are insinuating that this problem stems about a raise, you are wrong. This is about the city bargaining in bad faith. And not just with firefighters, but the two other city workers unions as well. The city basically got their heads handed to them in arbitration with the firefighters union, thus the dok front page production claiming this is all about money. Repeatedly, all the unions stated they would forego raises if the city would at least talk about staffing issues that are very real. Since the inception of the first maps project through the last, the city has asked all of the unions to back them and they did. After all, it would benefit the members, but so far they've seen their numbers sink. There are less personnel and a greatly increased workload. The unions want this issue addressed and the city's leaders won't, period. I understand we are in tough economic times, and I'm certain that the IAFF Local 157, the FOP and the AFSCME leaders know it. But since roughly 1995 they have been asked to do mor with less, after nearly 15 years it gets frustrating. This has nothing to do with pay or raises, this is an ongoing problem that has finally reached its boiling point.

[andy157]

So, after rallying folks together and hashing it out, the one single best available strategy was decided, without dissent, to be go forth and vocally oppose the extension of a temporary sales tax?

Ok, let's say your folks are wildly successful, stunning everyone.

Let's say supporters take to the streets, the malls, blogs, broadcast venues and church steps and proclaim
NO GROWTH UNTIL WE HAVE MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

WHATTA WE WANT?
MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
WHEN WE WANT THEM?
NOW!

HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

Let's say it catches on so fast, so huge that teabaggers begin to hurl themselves off bridges in envy and every last Ogle says "wow, well played!"

Let's say straw polls show a resounding 68% plan to vote down MAPs3 and do so specifically because they heard your call for bodies before growth.

Then what?

I'm not agin ya.
I'm not a MAPs3 cheerleader, though I think some of it is rather awesome.

I am curious by nature though, and the present approach is, to me anyways, more than a wee bit curious.

Edumacate me. Some folks swear it is possible to do. Others, they ain't so sure.

To answere you first question. Yes

[andy157]

Who prompted the assembly to happen in the first place?

Also, I have a very hard time believing you that it was a unanimous decision. Did anyone abstain from voting?

The members, it's called a regular monthly Union meeting. Sorry you find that so hard to believe. No, but they had the right to abstain, as well as the right to vote no.

[andy157]

I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.

See my other post it's not about STUFF or a RAISE

[Jim F.]

Andy.... you expect the counsel to allow the union to have input into staffing decisions? Doesn't happen at any job I ever heard of. you know the councel would never allow that. Face it, it's about the money. The union wants a raise. they would never get input into the staffing numbers.

[andy157]

Doesn't take rocket science to figure out it's Andy Summers with IAFF local 157. Why the need for such secrecy? His screenname obviously says who he is. Nothing secret about it. And Andy is a great guy....respect him a lot. We just differ in our opinions.

Simply put, opposing MAPS 3 does nothing to benefit the fire dept. They're simply using MAPS 3 as a leveraging tool to try to get their pay increased. I don't know too many govt jobs right now that are increasing salaries or are hiring. I work as a physician for the VA, and we're on a hiring freeze and experiencing pay cuts. So, why should the OKCFD be any different? Face it, the economy sucks, and deal with it. If anything the MAPS programs have kept our city from losing jobs by keeping major employers like Devon from leaving. It's a good investment.

Patrick, I'm sorry but your deduction caused me to LOL, Andy Summers will think it funny as well. I mean no disrespect, but you may want to think about re-taking rocket science 101, or a least get some remedial training. Nevertheless, my name is Mike Anderson, there the cat is out of the bag, and if your the Patrick I think you are, we have met. Did I meet with you and Keith S. a few years back? Now that I've outed myself I won't be able to give Fire121 a hard time. Sorry G.H. I still LYLAB

[smooth]

"That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now."

Actually, it will. The older equipment has been known to break down on the way to an incident. Not often, however, it happens. They even break down before they make it out of the station. So, replacing them with high quality equipment will make it faster. Why? It does't break down.

[kevinpate]

To answere you first question. Yes

Ok, but in light of that, the equally if not more intriquing Q comes afterwards, should the planned opposition knock MAPs3 down.

I truly am curious about the 'Then what?' or I wouldn't have asked.

[soonerguru]

I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.

Midtowner. I think the problem is these people are idiots. First of all, they come on this board and suddenly start attacking long-time posters and making ridiculous suggestions about them.

They are so clueless they don't realize that the people who post here would be the most likely to support their initiatives.

Then, they think by holding MAPS hostage they're going to win converts.

Here's what I think will actually happen:

They will trash MAPS and make this a very personal and public, nasty campaign.

Then, MAPS will still pass by a sliver of the vote.

Then, when these blowhards come back to us for help we'll tell them where they can put it.

[iron76hd]

I guess I'm the only one that reads other posts. I read each post and laugh because you ask a question that's been answered.

We aren't so confident as to think that just our deciding not to support MAPS3 will keep it from passing. In not supporting it, we will no longer hide the short staffing problems our city has as a whole. We WILL make every effort to make sure that at least citizens know what is really going on within each part of their city services.

The citizens will untimately make the decision now. You will decide what's most important to you and your family. I like how some of you supporting MAPS3 no matter what like to speak for the rest of the city.

The Mayor will no longer get us to just smile and tell citizens everything is GREAT like we have for years. We feel an obligation to at least inform them of the things this city's employees NEED to meet their obligations to Police, provide Fire Protection and take care of this city.

That's it. The rest is up to them. Many of you are a SUPPORT MAPS3 AT ANY COST person. I can see that. You've not even commented on any FACTS about staffing you've been given. The FACT about police staffing or fire staffing or city worker staffing. If you don't read about any of it. Comment on it. or listen to any interviews about it. then news flash. YOU DON"T CARE ABOUT IT. Just say it!!! It's not important to you. Unless the Mayor tells you their's a problem you won't believe it!! WOW!! Be MEN think for yourself it's ok. The study the MAYOR demanded is crap. All 3000 plus city employee's are full of it. The Mayor knows best. LOL...

You've come back with the same lame post. "You just want raises!!! Your childish. You want raises!! Your holding the city hostage. What do you have to gain by not supporting MAPS? Your just mad because you're not getting raises."

And the answers have been given over and over.

It's not PAY that's an easy excuse. In fact from what I understand the Fireman have also told the Mayor and City Manager openly that they will give back their raises they won through arbitration to add additional Fireman. READ IT...Give back their raises. Are you reading????

My favorite is the guy that eludes to Officers working traffic or lord forbid...DUI checkpoints. Guess none of that's important. What an idiot..Forget POLICE.

Forget Fireman. What about the rest of this city's employee's. Parks, Streets...if they say they need additonal staff are we to think they are not important??? Are we not to listen to their concerns?

Just try to listen to the FACTS about staffing. If it's bull to you. Then that's your choice. We just want citizens to know what's going on for the first time in years.

IF MAPS3 doesn't pass then the people have spoken. RIGHT? Then and maybe only then the counsel will attempt to address other concerns. Maybe not. But saying nothing and just smiling hasn't gotten them anywhere either. If you have a better way to reach the Mayor and city manager besides sitting down and shutting up...please let them know....I'm waiting!!!
I'm waiting!!!

Soonerguru...I'm sorry i didn't know being a long time poster gave you some sort of special respect. I thought all of the posts were on the subject for the most part.

I didn't know having an opinion that differs from yours made people Blowhards and Idiots.

Predictions.

All of the pretty pictures in the world. All of the scenes of a grand park with picnics and archs. All of the fancy commercials that will be run by private interest groups, like Chesapeake, Devon or the Mayor won't matter. All of the articles that will be run by the Daily Oklahoman (who obviously supports MAPS3) trashing Police and Fire. All of these should be starting anyday. ALL of that won't MATTER......

IF...IF the regular citizens that actually care about having adequate Police Protection, Fire Protection, and GOOD City Services know the TRUTH about our city's state.

Regular citizens are all over the city and in the Majority (thank god). You know regular citizens. Working folks. The ones that work so much they don't have time to have picnics with their family in a fancy MAPS3 park. They ones that actually have to save to afford to take their family to the $7 a ticket fair that MAPS3 want's to improve. The ones that look across the street from their home and see a city park that hasn't been updated in 20 or 30 years. The folks that unfortunately have to call the Police regularly and expect and deserve good service. The folks that have the drive-by's on their street. You know the ones YOU only see on the news. The folks that don't live in a gated community or have PRIVATE security in their neighborhood.

The folks that do care about an additional ONE CENT tax. Those regular folks. If they know the TRUTH about what's really going on. and get out and VOTE......then

MAPS3 won't be a reality. It won't even be close. Not by a longshot.

[okclee]

I would like to see more Okc Police actually live in the central urban areas that they work in. Instead of living out on the far edges of the city, such as near Moore and Edmond.

[iron76hd]

I would like to see more Okc Police actually live in the central urban areas that they work in. Instead of living out on the far edges of the city, such as near Moore and Edmond.

I have several stories of how living in these areas almost turned into career ending problems for officers. I could tell you the stories about how they weren't supported when they tried to clean up their particular neighborhood. You wouldn't believe it. I promise. If they had the full support of their department and the city, they could easily help clean up alot of those places. It sounds crazy. I agree with you though. I also have to think most decide to live where they believe the best schools are for their children. My guess only. Or assume they live in some of the areas they do for the same reasons our city leaders and most influential people don't live in those same urban areas.

[David]

The members, it's called a regular monthly Union meeting. Sorry you find that so hard to believe. No, but they had the right to abstain, as well as the right to vote no.

So, was it an open vote, or a secret ballot?

[Midtowner]

Midtowner. I think the problem is these people are idiots. First of all, they come on this board and suddenly start attacking long-time posters and making ridiculous suggestions about them.

They are so clueless they don't realize that the people who post here would be the most likely to support their initiatives.

Then, they think by holding MAPS hostage they're going to win converts.

Here's what I think will actually happen:

They will trash MAPS and make this a very personal and public, nasty campaign.

Then, MAPS will still pass by a sliver of the vote.

Then, when these blowhards come back to us for help we'll tell them where they can put it.

They're entitled to their opinions. I've learned that OKCTalk is probably OKC's premiere forum for folks from all different walks of life to exchange ideas as equals. I'm by no means an expert on emergency services. What I see is that at current funding levels, somehow, they do a hell of a good job.

I know OCPD and OCFD still attract some of the best and brightest applicants for their academies. I know that for the most part they deliver a high level of service.

My understanding thus far is that this entire issue is about staffing and vacations. Pay is probably a secondary issue. I'm just asking the same questions of our municipal employees that I'd ask from anyone who was trying to take my money in exchange for services -- can they promise me that with 40 officers focusing on gang crimes instead of 12, that there'd be a highly significant difference in gang activity? If we had remodeled and rebuilt fire stations, would that mean that the trucks would get where they needed to go faster? That said, these issues seem to be completely irrelevant in the MAPS context for reasons above. MAPS is not and never will be an adequate funding mechanism for staffing. The purpose of MAPS is capital improvements to improve the economy. Arguably, this is the very solution which our municipal employees are looking for because as we know MAPS = increased municipal revenue.

They all do a hell of a good job and I'm thankful. I know as much as we trash these guys, our trash will continue to be picked up at the curb and the police and fire departments will continue to lose brave men defending folks like us.

I just think their energy is misspent here. They are organized. Heck.. if they wanted to, they have the manpower to pack the city council with ex police and firemen. In fact, in its current state, if they supported MAPS, then packed the Council with their guys, they could have $777 million to spend on police and fire department needs only. (kidding sort of)

On a serious note, I'm all about seeing a constructive discussion happen here without all the name calling. I know for a fact that the city's political and opinion leaders do read these threads. As many of you know, despite the fact I seem like a MAPS cheerleader, I'm against the current proposal due to the wishy-washy ballot language, but that's another topic entirely.

[Mikemarsh51]

Let me jump in here with some facts. Next month I will have 25 years with the OCFD. I was hired with Andy157 and it's not Andy Summers. Prior to March of 1989 we could not get a sales tax to help Public safety. 3 Firefighters were killed and the good folks of this city saw that we had a need. When the tax was passed to add 5 stations and 200 extra Firefighters we had 748 personnel. After the stations were added and the people were hired the City began to let the numbers fall as far as they were concerned they could let the number of personnel fall back to 748. Local 157 had to take the City to District court to get an injunction to keep the number at 948.

That number has been the benchmark we work off of. As a side note the City has said they were willing to challenge us on the number at any time. Why would they be willing to fight to drop the number of personnel. The responses are double of what they were 10 years ago. The population is about 100,000 higher than when the 1989 sales tax. Just look around and think about how much we have grown in 20 years. We have 26 Advanced Life Support, Paramedic Engines. We have 9 more to complete the program. The city has not adjusted for that, because each Engine goes from 3 to 4 personnel minimum. The have not added 26 people x 3 shifts.

The industry standard is 10 years for frontline equipment and 20 years as back up. We have done reasonably well on keeping up with this. The 14 year old Engine I ride is due to be replaced this week. That rig will go to the Northside to replace an Engine that is unusable. We are getting our Ladders that we bought in 1991 replaced now 3 of the 4 are upgraded and in service. We do have a 1985 Ladder that is a backup, it will barely do 50 MPH and is the second oldest piece of equipment besides the 1910 parade Engine.

Our gripe has nothing to do with anything other than let's address the cities needs before we address the want's. If you want to discuss money, we operate on wages like this, we and the City agree on 10 similar cities of like size and like sized departments. We average the salaries of the ten and we shoot for 100% of the average. I don't believe we have ever been at 100%, usually around 95-98%.

Ask me anything and I will tell you what I know.

[iron76hd]

They all do a hell of a good job and I'm thankful. I know as much as we trash these guys, our trash will continue to be picked up at the curb and the police and fire departments will continue to lose brave men defending folks like us.

Thank you for keeping us on point. And yes sir no matter what. Most of our Policeman and Fireman believe it's their calling and more than just a job. So make no mistake. No matter what. If a citizen in this city calls....to quell a disturbance of 200 or 20,000 and their are only two available officers to respond ...they'll go...just the two...no questions asked. Or a Fire that requires 4 trucks but they only have enough men or women to fill two...they'll go...no questions asked..

What they'd like to prevent if possible is losing one Policeman or Fireman because of unsafe staffing numbers. Or more importantly losing one citizen...for the same reason...

If speaking out falls on deaf ears...then so be it...we can say we tried...but saying nothing...hasn't worked thus far...

[Urban Pioneer]

I heard this morning that the same study that these workers spout about also has analysis that they can do more with less if their resources are distributed appropriately. I challenge you Ironman, post the ENTIRE study without cut and paste and let this forum decide for themselves.

Also, the convention center is suppossed to be self supporting with internal budgeting to hire the appropriate level of emergency workers. The park is an ACTIVE park with 365 programming. It too will generate some of its own income and be staffed appropriately. The new streetcar system will be staffed with operators in a secure cab with radios and camera monitoring. It does not require transit police. We may even want to put our "Ambassadors" on board.

This "proportianate staffing" argument is premature and a scare tatic to make emergency workers think they will be stretched to cover more infrastructure and gain public sympathy. Find a stronger argument. The reason why additional people have nit been hired is due to good management and new technology such as computers and a 1st class communication system. If things were that stretched and bad the crime statistics would reflect it.

Your leadership has you worried and convinced that holding this public vote hostage will somehow get the City Manager to give you what you want. It will not work.

[Urban Pioneer]

I heard this morning that the same study that these workers spout about also has analysis that they can do more with less if their resources are distributed appropriately. I challenge you Ironman, post the ENTIRE study without cut and paste and let this forum decide for themselves.

Also, the convention center is suppossed to be self supporting with internal budgeting to hire the appropriate level of emergency workers. The park is an ACTIVE park with 365 programming. It too will generate some of its own income and be staffed appropriately. The new streetcar system will be staffed with operators in a secure cab with radios and camera monitoring. It does not require transit police. We may even want to put our "Ambassadors" on board.

This "proportianate staffing" argument is premature and a scare tatic to make emergency workers think they will be stretched to cover more infrastructure and gain public sympathy. Find a stronger argument. The reason why additional people have nit been hired is due to good management and new technology such as computers and a 1st class communication system. If things were that stretched and bad the crime statistics would reflect it.

Your leadership has you worried and convinced that holding this public vote hostage will somehow get the City Manager to give you what you want. It will not work.

[Midtowner]

Iron, I also thank you for your service to this city. My understanding thus far (and as promised, I have not checked the statute I've been directed to, nor the case I was told about) is that the actual complaint is about paid vacation time. Is that the case? Or is it something else? I think if your two unions are to make a point to the public, you need to get a little more specific. With all due respect, myself and most other citizens don't know a dang thing about what constitutes unsafe staffing numbers.

Are unsafely staffed fire crews common? If so, why? What jobs are missing? What is needed to fix this? I'm someone who probably is better informed than your average person and I have no clue what specifically your issues are and how they are relevant to MAPS.

Pretend I'm on the city council. What is it (and be as specific as possible) that needs to change and most importantly, how do we pay for it?