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Thread: Romney's tax plan

  1. #1
    Roadhawg is offline Participating Member
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    Default Romney's tax plan

    For a detailed explanation of how the Romney-Ryan tax plan is able to cut taxes by $5 trillion without raising taxes on the middle class or exploding the deficit.


    For all the details on Mitt Romney's 5 trillion dollar tax plan visit ROMNEYTAXPLAN.COM
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    bretthexum is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    That's pretty good!

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    Roadhawg is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Obama should have used that in the debate

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    rcjunkie is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Romney's a thief, he's using Obama's tax plan!!

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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by rcjunkie View Post
    Romney's a thief, he's using Obama's tax plan!!
    Obama is using Bush's tax plan.
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    rcjunkie is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Actually, Obama's Tax Plan is "how much do you make, send it in", because you know the government can better control and spend your money then you can.
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    The only way the middle class is going to get more money is to restore graduated (progressive) taxes on the richest 2% of Americans. This is what America did in the 1920's through the 2000's when George W. Bush's administration pretty much made taxes on the richest Americans non-existent after lowering tax rates & maintaining their tax exemptions (including capital gains).

    It is not class warfare to have the richest Americans pay more taxes than the rest of us, it is the way we restore our middle class. If our rich don't pay a fair share of the American tax base, we will never be able to have any money to invest back in America (we will have to keep shrinking the government until it doesn't exist), we won't have any money to pay for Medicare, Medicaid, or our national defense, and we won't have any money to pay towards the national debt. All we will have left is Social Security, because our FICA taxes are always greater than our Social Security payments to our retirees and disabled.

    The reason we have to play Robin Hood is the top 2% of the richest Americans now own 50% of the nation's private wealth. (The bottom 50% of our population, including me as a retiree, split up only 1% of the national wealth.) When Republicans decry that half the nation doesn't pay federal income taxes, they ignore the fact that that half of the nation hold only 1% of the national wealth, so it is no big loss to the US Treasury.

    Raising taxes on the top 2% of Americans is paramount to restoring America's greatness. There is no other way to restore our middle class in my opinion.
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    Dubya61 is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH_in_OKC View Post
    The only way the middle class is going to get more money is to restore graduated (progressive) taxes on the richest 2% of Americans.
    It is not class warfare to have the richest Americans pay more taxes than the rest of us, it is the way we restore our middle class. If our rich don't pay a fair share of the American tax base, we will never be able to have any money to invest back in America (we will have to keep shrinking the government until it doesn't exist), we won't have any money to pay for Medicare, Medicaid, or our national defense, and we won't have any money to pay towards the national debt. All we will have left is Social Security, because our FICA taxes are always greater than our Social Security payments to our retirees and disabled.
    The reason we have to play Robin Hood is the top 2% of the richest Americans now own 50% of the nation's private wealth. (The bottom 50% of our population, including me as a retiree, split up only 1% of the national wealth.) When Republicans decry that half the nation doesn't pay federal income taxes, they ignore the fact that that half of the nation hold only 1% of the national wealth, so it is no big loss to the US Treasury.
    Raising taxes on the top 2% of Americans is paramount to restoring America's greatness. There is no other way to restore our middle class in my opinion.
    I don't see how it's "fair" for one person to be taxed at a higher rate than another. I do think that a lot of loopholes exist in our tax code that make the actual tax paid unfair. It could be that I'm just an ignorant sot, but I still believe that a flat tax and/or a consumption tax would work well and there's no need to tax the rich at a greater percentage than the poor or middle class. Let me present a scenario that illustrates why I think it's fair to tax like that -- let's look at four different citizens. I propose Herman Cain's 9-9-9 because I'm no economist and haven't come up with my own number (although I think it'd be hard to sell a 6-6-6 tax rate in the Bible Belt, eh?). For the consumption tax, I will use 3%. Again, not a researched number. I'm just throwing a number on the wall.
    For this scenario I'll use me as one of the citizens -- an average or maybe even lower middle class regular Joe. I'm married with two kids. My spouse and I make $40K each and thanks to some minor investing, we were able to get $10K of other income (Capital Gains, rental, whatever). We shop at Crest or Walmart and sometimes use coupons and try to shop smart, but sometimes buy name brands instead of the store brands because we believe there's a difference in quality. Last year we spent $7,200 on groceries (and some eating out). We bought a car last year: a Ford Taurus -- it cost $25K.
    My sister, Penny, is married to Igor. They both are just barely getting by and have no secondary education. She works for minimum wage at McDonalds ($15.6K / yr), Igor makes $15/hr with the state working on a road crew ($31.2K / yr). The have four children. When they go shopping they always use coupons and can barely afford anything other than the store brand. They eat out about once a month at Cici's. Their annual food bill is about $8K. By coincidence, they also were able to buy a car last year: a used Toyota Sienna for about $15K.
    My brother, FiftyCent, has a college education and pulls in about $50K per year. He has no family members that are dependent on him. He eats out a lot, never uses coupons and buys what pleases him at Whole Foods without regard to the costs. His food bill last year was $5K. He also bought a car last year, a Chevy Silverado. It cost him about $40K.
    My Uncle Dollar and Aunt Susan B. are getting by OK. Uncle Dollar still works, but Aunt Susan B doesn't. Their children are grown and have moved out of the house. Uncle Dollar rakes in about $200K per year. He also earned $50K from a stock sale that he a profit from last year. They eat out some and don't scrimp at Sprouts, Homeland, or the Mediterranean Deli. Last year they spent about 9 grand on food. Odd, but they also bought a new car last year: an Infiniti QX -- about $60K.
    Here are my tax assumptions:
    - 9-9-9 rate (stated above)
    - 3% consumption tax
    - $2.5K income deduction per household individual ('cause my and Penny's households are raising future taxpayers)
    - No other deductions
    Taxes would come out as:
    Dubya's household: $6,300 income tax
    - $900 other income tax (CG, etc.)
    - $7,200 total income tax
    - $966 consumption tax
    Penny's household: $2,862 income tax
    - no other income tax (CG, etc.)
    - $2,862 total income tax
    - $690 consumption tax
    FiftyCent's household: $4,275 income tax
    - no other income tax (CG, etc.)
    - $4,275 total income tax
    - $1,350 consumption tax
    Dollar's household: $17.550 income tax
    - $4,500 other income tax (CG, etc.)
    - $22,050 total income tax
    - $2,070 consumption tax
    Without a graduated tax, Uncle Dollar paid more taxes than I did. How is that unfair?
    Here's a further breakdown that shows how it's fair (IMO).
    Actual Tax % incl CG % incl/cons Total Taxes paid (per Adult) (per family mbr)
    Dubya 7.88% 8.00% 10.21% $8,166 $4,083 $2,042
    Penny 6.12% 6.12% 7.59% $3,552 $1.776 $ 592
    FiftyCent 8.55% 8.55% 11.25% $5,652 $5,625 $5,625
    Dollar 8.78% 8.82% 12.06% $24,120 $12,060 $12,060

    How is that unfair? How is that regressive?
    If you change the exemption methods then:
    Dubya Penny 50Cent Dollar
    tax rate tax rate tax rate tax rate
    No exemption -- straight 9% tax: $8,100 $4,212 $4,500 $22,500
    Tax deduct instead of Income deduct: $ 0 0 % $ 0 0% $2,000 4 % $13,000 6.5%
    50-50 split tax-income deduct: $1,750 2.2% $ 0 0% $3,138 6.3% $15,275 7.6%
    Smaller ($1K) income deduct: $6,840 8.6% $3,672 7.9% $4,410 8.8% $17,820 8.9%
    Smaller ($1K) 50-50 split deduct: $5,020 6.3% $ 942 2% $3,955 7.9% $16,910 8.5%
    Only kids exempt (50-50 split): $4,475 5.6% $ 0 0% $4,500 9 % $18,000 9 %
    Consumption Tax Only (but 10%): $3,220 $2,300 $4,500 $ 6,900
    shown as a percent of income: 4 % 4.9% 9 % 3.5%

    There's lots of ways to tinker with it without creating a convoluted tax code, and you can see that Uncle Dollar paid more taxes than the rest in every situation. Further, with exception to the situation where there was no income tax but only a consumption tax, rich Uncle Dollar paid a higher rate (except in the situation where, including income tax, the exemption only applied to children, and then, his household paid the same rate as FiftyCent's).
    Obviously, neither candidate has this in mind, so the point is moot with regard to the election, but I disagree that a progressive or graduated income is more fair than a flat tax as displayed above.

    In case those tables didn't come out as planned, here's a picture of the data in a spreadsheet (I hope).
    Romney's tax plan-tax1.jpgRomney's tax plan-tax2.jpg

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH_in_OKC View Post
    The only way the middle class is going to get more money is to restore graduated (progressive) taxes on the richest 2% of Americans. This is what America did in the 1920's through the 2000's when George W. Bush's administration pretty much made taxes on the richest Americans non-existent after lowering tax rates & maintaining their tax exemptions (including capital gains).

    It is not class warfare to have the richest Americans pay more taxes than the rest of us, it is the way we restore our middle class. If our rich don't pay a fair share of the American tax base, we will never be able to have any money to invest back in America (we will have to keep shrinking the government until it doesn't exist), we won't have any money to pay for Medicare, Medicaid, or our national defense, and we won't have any money to pay towards the national debt. All we will have left is Social Security, because our FICA taxes are always greater than our Social Security payments to our retirees and disabled.

    The reason we have to play Robin Hood is the top 2% of the richest Americans now own 50% of the nation's private wealth. (The bottom 50% of our population, including me as a retiree, split up only 1% of the national wealth.) When Republicans decry that half the nation doesn't pay federal income taxes, they ignore the fact that that half of the nation hold only 1% of the national wealth, so it is no big loss to the US Treasury.

    Raising taxes on the top 2% of Americans is paramount to restoring America's greatness. There is no other way to restore our middle class in my opinion.
    Why take away any incentive to work hard, bust azz, and take a risk if all that's going to happen is you're going to have to give it to the EF'n government.....wake up people !
    BlackmoreRulz likes this.

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    bretthexum is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellaboo View Post
    Why take away any incentive to work hard, bust azz, and take a risk if all that's going to happen is you're going to have to give it to the EF'n government.....wake up people !
    Because the average Joe will never bust azz and make it to the top 2%. If that was the case we'd have millions of billionaires. Sorry, I don't have any sympathy for people making millions per year paying 3-4% more each year. If it saves the middle class.... hell yes they can afford a little more.
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    White Peacock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by bretthexum View Post
    Because the average Joe will never bust azz and make it to the top 2%. If that was the case we'd have millions of billionaires. Sorry, I don't have any sympathy for people making millions per year paying 3-4% more each year. If it saves the middle class.... hell yes they can afford a little more.
    Unfortunately, the average Joe does tend to bust his ass, yet remains at the same societal rung throughout his life. So yeah, pin more of the burden on the rich and give the average guy more of a break. There's no reason people like us should make the rich richer both by working in their companies AND paying their share of the taxes. There are rich people who have a sense of social responsibility, but they're few and far between. It seems the bulk just want to buy politicians and increase their own gains, to the detriment of their country.

    Seriously, the "poor, pitiful me" act that the wealthy have adopted is disgusting. I would love for my biggest problem in life to be that I'm so rich that Obama wants to tax me more. wah
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  12. #12
    OKCTalker is offline Gold Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Not even Romney knows what he's going to do until his advisors meet with congressional leaders and they discuss what they can agree upon. And there's no guarantee that they can agree on enough to pass a budget.

    Remember - congress hasn't passed a budget in three years, despite being required by law to do so.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellaboo View Post
    Why take away any incentive to work hard, bust azz, and take a risk if all that's going to happen is you're going to have to give it to the EF'n government.....wake up people !
    Come on, really? How much of an extra tax burden would it take for you to say "That's it, I'm not going to make any more than I already do, because the tax rate is too high."?

    Even if current tax rates were doubled, we all would continue to work hard to make more, especially the rich, ho can make exponentially more than the middle class.

    People like you need to wake up, it is simple math. Increasing taxes and cutting spending both is the only solution to reduced deficits and debt.

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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Well if the MAN takes away my special dividend rate of 15% in favor of taxing it at the ordinary income tax rate them I'm gonna go all John Galt on their azzes. I worked really hard to come out of the right womb.
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    To Dubya61: Consumption taxes are the biggest way to screw the middle class. VAT is what is ruining Europe. It robs the poor & middle class and the rich don't care.

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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Unfettered immigration is the biggest enemy of the middle class....
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackmoreRulz View Post
    Unfettered immigration is the biggest enemy of the middle class....
    Easy credit is the biggest enemy of the middle class...

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    HewenttoJared is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackmoreRulz View Post
    Unfettered immigration is the biggest enemy of the middle class....
    Coronary heart disease - PubMed Health

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    Dubya61 is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH_in_OKC View Post
    To Dubya61: Consumption taxes are the biggest way to screw the middle class. VAT is what is ruining Europe. It robs the poor & middle class and the rich don't care.
    Why do you say that? Are my numbers crap? Why? If you're talking about Warren Buffet, yeah, a consumption tax wouldn't tax him and his extremely conservative purchasing habits much more than me and mine, but I'll bet you don't have too much truck with Warren Buffet. Can't you see that the Donald, John Kerry, Mitt Romney, etc. would be paying more taxes than you or I?

    BTW -- VAT (alone) isn't what's ruining Europe. If Germany were solo outside of the EuroZone (and they DO have a VAT tax), would they be in trouble? No.

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    Stan Silliman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    Render unto Caesar. It's in the bible!
    But who really knows what that meant?

    Did David Stockman, who finally admitted
    That "trickle-down" was so ill-fitted?
    Did Herman Cain, with his pizza brain
    think 9-9-9 puts us on the gravy train?
    Did Steven Forbes, a flat-tax robotic
    think removing loopholes is more exotic?
    We must protect the upper class
    For if soaked too much, won't bust their ass.
    They'll cry "Poor me, less polo ponies,
    Why can't I keep all my monies?
    I've worked so hard, I rarely sat
    But then you said "You didn't build that!"
    You're squeezing the strive right out of me
    By asking for a 2 % more fee.
    I'm thinking now you should tax the others
    That "Work for Food" guy and all his brothers
    They've been riding free on my back too long
    Jab them, pinch them, that's not so wrong
    Just don't ask me to throw in one cent more
    Or I'll walk away, I'll close my store.
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    CaptDave is offline Gold Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    That was incredibly RadMod'ish! Are you trying to start a rhyme battle with him!?

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    Stan Silliman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    I was rap battling when Rad Mod was picking up flower children in his cross country Mack truck.

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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    So, are we looking for the Inaugural OKCTalk Poetry Slam?

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    Dubya61 is offline Participating Member
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    Default Re: Romney's tax plan

    I really believe that we need to initiate a national sales tax. I had this to say about it in the recent immigration thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubya61 View Post
    ... by forcing these people who, by and large, simply came to America to seek a better life for themselves and their families into illegal status without any realistic hope of citizenship, we're basically setting up or reinforcing a shadow economy (second economy, underground economy, black market -- call it what you will). This shadow economy wreaks havoc on our legitimate economy and is estimated to be at about $2 Trillion!! Some say that it's actually aiding our economy because the shadow economy is where the money is really flowing, but ask any government entity that might normally receive taxes off that shadow economy whether or not it's hurting them and you'll hear a resounding YES. Conversely, the government entities that aren't hurt very much by the shadow economy are the governments that make money off of sales tax -- THAT's where the money is flowing and making it into government coffers. Maybe that's the plan. Maybe the "small government / Tea Party" faction aren't put off by the shadow economy because it's slowly strangulating federal and state government. If we continue to allow this shadow economy to bleed federal and state governments dry ('cause you KNOW they haven't figured out yet how to spend less and the ONLY solution in mind is to make up the losses by taxing the rich), get ready for JTF's 2020, when city-states start to be the ONLY viable government out there.
    In this old thread, post #8, I discuss how I feel a national sales tax or consumption tax should work.
    Add to it that a national sales tax would capture revenue off of what some estimate to be a $2 Trillion source of taxation.
    In fairness, there are some detractors. Stan says that it would force a lot of purchase to take place overseas that would have otherwise taken place in-country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Silliman View Post
    Consumption tax or National Sales Tax, whatever you wish to call it, varies from country to country. If you retained a smaller income tax coupled with a NST, it may not
    drive purchases away. But by abolishing the progressive income tax altogether and running our country solely based on purchases has the negatives described in post # 14.
    We can't dictate the way other countries raise revenues but you can bet sales taxes are less in countries with income taxes. It's no secret you can buy some automobiles
    cheaper in Europe if you're willing to wait on the shipments. Now, if you add the incentive of a far lesser tax on the purchase, European vacation/car buying ventures become
    even more attractive and potentially harmful to local dealers.
    JohnH says that it puts an unfair burden on the middle class.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH_in_OKC View Post
    To Dubya61: Consumption taxes are the biggest way to screw the middle class. VAT is what is ruining Europe. It robs the poor & middle class and the rich don't care.
    CaptDave has advocated for something called a Fair Tax that, I believe, is an amalgamation of a graduated income tax and a flat tax.
    I have lived in Naples, Italy, where there is a HUGE shadow economy, and the governments suffer for it greatly. If we fail to get illegal immigrants (and others) out of the shadow economy, the federal and state governments need to take a hard look at a consumption tax.

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