This thread actually started as a response to a "Thunder" post.....

I still visit OKCTalk to keep up and read the latest on civic and business activity. I haven't posted but once since August (A photo on election night). But the above from this man/woman deserves a response....

Thunder: Your bombastic posts that sound like Neo-Nazi pamphlets from the wheat fields disgust me. They are so stereotypical with all the misspellings, poor grammar and nutty ultra-conservative AM radio claptrap. Not that you care, but I feel better having said it.

By the way, you're confident of, "Oklahoma being recession-proof while the rest of the nation goes under along with the stock market." Do you really think Oklahoma is an island that can sustain itself if the rest of the country goes to hell? You've said crap like this in other posts that lack a patriotism for the United States of America. To you, Oklahoma is some kind of island of prosperity and you couldn't care less what happens to the rest of the country. An odd patriot you make.

By the way, ask Sonic, Chesapeake and others how insulated Oklahoma is from the travails of the stock market. They all found out in the last sixty days how wrong you are.

Thunder, you show such incredible ignorance. Yet, you, in many ways, reflect the thinking of many in Oklahoma and that's damn sad. (The only state where every county went to McCain-Palin - and some by 80-90%!). Those who stay here, and fight against those of Thunder's ilk, are brave. Oklahoma City and Tulsa have much to offer and have a bright future. But it's going to be a long, tough slog and I'm not prepared to sacrifice my own life to be a part of any "renaissance" amongst so many backward and selfish people - everywhere I turn. That's why my wife and I have decided that Oklahoma City, the city I was raised, (but left for several years and returned) is simply not the kind of place we want to finish raising our families. We're leaving. The cultural "thunder" of this city is deafening, isolating, intolerant, racist, ultra-ultra-conservative, and one that will continue to drive young professionals away in droves. The NBA's Thunder is not going to save this city. Devon's plans are not going to save this city. Because every great city is more that its buildings, sports and grand plans - it's the people who populate it. And in Oklahoma, the educated, cultured, thoughtful person is in the minority as they face the onslaught of rightwing religion, culture, business and politics; a small political clique that is controlled by the wealthy few - and the average citizen is given token attention (except when its time to ask them to fund their private projects where they'll reap all the profit).

I wish Oklahoma City all the best and good luck. It's going to need it. The 77-county sweep for John McCain and Sarah Palin(!) made national news and spoke volumes all across this great country. That image makes a huge difference and can't be underestimated. There are some good people on this board and I will miss you. But it also doesn't escape me that this board is full of people who say "we" when they mean "you guys" because some of the most prolific posters here at OKCTalk - you guessed it - live out of state. Even the owner of the OKCtalk board - lives in California. Pete is a great and intelligent guy - enough to realize its best to champion Oklahoma --- from a distance.

Spare me the "don't let the door hit you...." posts. Like I said, the selfish mean spirit (albeit done very often with a smile) is part of our culture, as displayed in our civic discourse and decisions at the polls.

We leave in January. Goodbye, OKCTalk, and to my many friends here. To those who hope for a better and more progressive future - keep up the fight. But if things don't show signs of change, remember life is short and there are many cities that are everything so many of us only wish Oklahoma City could be -- one day.

Goodbye.

Good luck and OKC will be just fine...Race was pretty close in Oklahoma county so there is a pretty good mix of thinking...Now the boonies are a completely different story

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Dr. Spaceman: Now Jenna, medically speaking for your height your weight puts you what we call the "disgusting" range. Fortunately there are solutions. For example, crystal meth has been shown to be very effective. How important is tooth retention to you?

Thanks, Solitude, for your post and your many musings. I wish you and your family the best of luck in your future endeavors and plans. You'll certainly be missed. Please don't forget us and drop in every now and then to let us know how you are doing.

Yeah, last week was a hard one.

But, you have to read this board with a jaded eye... people can assume all sorts of wacky personas and identities, very often using different computers with different IPs making it difficult to track, but not impossible.

Of course, I know you're making your decision based on a many factors, just don't let statements like the above influence you. Remember on the internet, things aren't always what they seem and people love to pull people's chains.. and get a reaction. They love creating a train wreck and watching all the ensuing chaos from behind the safety of their screen.

Good luck on your new endeavor. Where are you moving to?

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" You've Been Thunder Struck ! "

Really?

I must admit, the persistent ignorance and predjudice displayed by many in Oklahoma is a deterrent to my ever wanting to return to live in my home State. For such a poor State, the populus seems to be hell bent on retaining the attitudes of Shaun Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and others who preach intolerence of any position outside of theirs. With the voting patterns displayed during this last presidential election, Oklahoma will remain poor, relatively uneducated and a place were more progressive and open minded thinkers avoid.

Solitude, I hope that you're not being entirely serious and that you're not actually moving. I've enjoyed your posts and would like to do that again! Besides, if YOU leave, who's gonna help me with the "Socialists In Oklahoma" article which I still plan to get to one of these days: http://www.okctalk.com/political-are...ght=socialists

If you ARE leaving, good wishes.

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Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

There are those (me) who don't watch Fox News or listen to guys like you mentioned on talk radio. Heck, I even take it a step further: When listening to the Sports Animal, when that sickeningly sweet music begins in the background which telegraphs what's about to happen, I immediately either change stations or turn down the volume to avoid receiving the advice of what's-her-name.

While many if not most may align themselves with the religious right (and note that I did NOT use the word "conservative" -- one can be a conservative without linking religion and politics) there are plenty around who don't.

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Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

It is funny that some of you equate being "progressive" and "open minded" to being somehow uneducated. Myself, for example. I have studied the concept of the collectivist state and I find it to be immoral. Yes, I'm selfish, but selfish is what makes our economy work. If you stop rewarding selfishness, businesses and producers get out of Dodge.

By saying what you're saying you don't actually wish people are open minded. You want them to close their mind to individualist state policies and embrace collectivism. One is not inherently 'dumb' while the other is for all the smart people.

True, folks like Thunder are misguided, closed minded, probably uneducated. But the same can be said for the newly registered gentleman who was not long ago calling for the rounding up of anyone who criticized Obama's policies as 'subversives' are 'dangerous.'

Both sides have sound policies and well considered agendas. Both sides also have a considerable number of useful idiots who vote for them. Northern Oklahoma County (Edmond) is I would guess is a place where you have more college degrees per capita than just about any place in the state. The vast majority of these seemingly educated folks voted for McCain.

Solitude, godspeed, but I find your reasoning to be fundamentally flawed. If you just want to be in a place with a more collectivist attitude, say that. But folks aren't dumb just because they don't agree with you. Your education should have established that in grade school.

Seconded.

Let me see if I've got this straight, Solitude...

So anybody who is brave enough to own up to being a conservative is closed minded? Anybody who has the audacity to question Saint Barack is uneducated? Somebody who notices that our home values have remained stable and that the state's unemployment rates and other economic indicators are much better than most of the rest of the country is anti-American?

Wow. Good to know.

Thirded!

By the way, the National voting was 52% to 48%. That's not a mandate, but DEMOCRACY in action. Just because Oklahoma went 66% for McCain doesn't mean its out of step with the "intelligent, educated" others. We just have more of the aformentioned 48% than other states. And we like it that way.

Good luck with your future endeavors. May you find solace with those of like mind set.

Right on, Solitude! We'll always have a percentage of dee-dee-dee (see video below) Hate to see you leave though...all the best wherever you're headed.


dee dee dee song

Come on, that's not what he said.

Midtowner, if the places you seem to describe as "collectivist" are so inherently bad, then how do you explain that by just about any measure, Massachusetts, one of the most "progressive" or "collectivist" or "liberal" places, beats Oklahoma in virtually every measure of social well being. Drug addiction, divorce, crime, mental illness, teen pregnancy, smoking, obesity, etc.

Isn't this an interesting irony? Would you prefer a place with a higher quality of life or one with which is dramatically lower but more ideologically pure?

No doubt many would choose to live in a cesspool if it had the requisite amount of the god, guns, and gays or faith, family, and freedom.

I personally would like to see Oklahoma move out of the stone age and stay here to do my tiny part to move that along.

At the same time, were I a far richer man and not tied down by children and the need to report to my employer five days a week, I would choose to divide my time among many more progressive locations with Oklahoma remaining as my home. My family is here as is my heart. I'm sentimental that way.

At the same time, I can understand wanting to live in a place that's not as backward as Oklahoma. When I travel, I tend to gravitate towards places far less monochromatic culturally than OK.

I find the kind of idealistic radicalism found in larger college towns interesting. I wouldn't want to have the world necessarily ruled by that kind of radicalism, but it's far more appealing than a world ruled by the backwards, fundamentalism that seems to characterize most of Oklahoma.

Good luck Solitude. I hope you find what you are looking for. I'll have a bit of envy thinking of some of the places I might relocate.

Could Oklahoma's stability have anything to do with the Democrat Senate, you can bet it does... but just wait now when the Repubs deregulate everything... it will tank more just like the national economy did. Also, our economy doing good..is because we are an oil/gas state.. Please take note of what is happening at Chesapeake now. Possible take-over because of the market drop. Dont be so quick to think you are right.

I do feel like one other issue needs to be addressed here, and that is the complaint that Solitude has about the misspellings and the poor grammar. Sure, there are lots of people who post here with those problems. There is probably a post or two of mine with a typo or a missing word from when my brain was working faster than my typing fingers. But before being judgmental about others' spelling and grammar problems, please consider that there may be people posting here whose abilities differ from mine or yours. Their seemingly poor grammar and spelling may result not from a failure of the schools or from mere laziness, but from a learning or other disability.

I am glad we have differing opinions posted here, yours and Thunder's, and all the others as well. I dislike reading them when they're full of spelling and grammar problems, but I try to remember my own advice above and work hard to overlook those problems. The actual content is far more important.

Good luck Solitude

It kind of is.

He stated that Thunder made "an odd patriot" and accused him of being anti-American when he commented on the economy. The poll on the okctalk.com homepage currently shows that 70+% of people who had responded to the questions about the economy are doing the same or better. National news stories bear this out as well- things really aren't that bad here when compared to the rest of the country. City leaders and economic commentators have indicated that we will likely not be hit as hard as the rest of the country.


He states that "The 77-county sweep for John McCain and Sarah Palin(!) made national news and spoke volumes all across this great country. That image makes a huge difference and can't be underestimated." This implies that there is somehow something wrong with voting for a Republican candidate? The state has conservative values. There isn't anything wrong with that.

He also states that "educated, thoughtful" people are in the minority here. By "educated, thoughtful," of course, he means liberal. Um... right. I would venture that I have as much or more education than most people on this board. And from "name brand" schools, not Liberty U or any other partisan place.

I guess it comes down to "fight" or "flight".

Solitude, I'm a gay man in my early 30s living in Oklahoma. Most of my friends who live in the big cities think I'm crazy for living here, surrounded by so many hateful and intolerant people and being legally a second-class citizen. Not to mention how much more attractive a city with culture and diversity is to a young single person like me (and sorry, OKC is still measures up far short of places like NYC, SF, and DC when it comes to culture and diversity).

And to be honest, every time I visit one of those cities I kind of dread going back to OKC and wonder why the heck I'm not trying to move to a more progressive place. But then I remember my friends and realize that they'll still love me even when the drunk redneck at the next table yells "f***ing f*ggot" at me while we're watching a game at the bar.

There's a lunatic fringe that goes through life in a state of ignorance, hate, fear, racism, or religious brainwashing. While such people are everywhere, we sadly have more than our fair share here in Oklahoma. But I've also learned living here that because someone votes a certain way doesn't mean they are necessarily such a person. There are a lot of people who are honestly worried that cultural decline is going on and that the root cause is the weakened state of families. It might lead them to a misguided vote against gay marriage (for example), but that doesn't mean they are part of the lunatic fringe. I know a lot of people here cast a lot of votes for Republicans for legitimate policy positions and still detest the GOP fear and smear political behavior of the last decade.

Local events like the reelection of one of the lunatic fringe (Sally Kern) are certainly disheartening. But it's a lot more exciting to me living in a place where I can make a difference. Moving to SF or NYC is the easy way out. One day I'll hopefully have a partner and it might be in our best interest legally and financially to move out of state. But for now, I've chosen to stay put and fight.

It's a bit unfair to do a straight-comparison between Boston, MA and OKC, OK. Boston is a port town, and there is a ton of economic activity which goes along with that. Aside from that, OKC has barely existed for a century. Boston has been around since 1630.

To put it in better perspective, in 1900, just a few years after OKC was founded and seven prior to statehood, Boston had a population equal to (or maybe greater than) that which OKC has today.

And some of your measurables... mental illness? Really? How does that have anything to do with any social policy? I was pretty sure that was a result of bad genetics.

As for the rest, no doubt a nearly 400 year old city is going to have been able to develop better, or at least better recognized educational opportunities, a greater tax base, etc... but wow have we been catching up.

You have a problem with those?

And actually, the gay policy, fwiw, many of us "God and guns" folks find our policy towards gays to be reprehensible. I've been 100% in favor of gay marriage for a very long time now. I also find it terrible that my party uses the gay marriage wedge issue to marshal the useful idiots. I don't condone of that at all though.

To each his own.

I wish him and his family luck as well.

This is what happens when you believe you are ideologically superior- can't we just agree that we are ideologically DIFFERENT? That's my opinion (even as an economic and social conservative) and I think that's a pretty open minded position. On the other hand, it's pretty closed minded to think there is no merit whatsoever to Republican policies, or religion/spirituality, or any of the above.

It's offensive to me, a tolerant, urban, college Republican, to act like a state that votes Republican is somehow culturally backwards. The economic policies forwarded by conservatives (tax less to encourage consumer spending) have as much formulaic effectiveness on economic stimulation according to the Keynsian methodology as the liberal economic policies (tax more to spend more). Look it up. They both achieve the same numerical changes on the macroeconomy, they just go about it in different ways.

Neither superior, just different. Let's all love one another.

And best of luck with your move- hope you still check in on your hometown once in a while though!

Edmond_Outsider,

That is exactly what I am getting at. Your example of Massachusetts is not off-base. They may have a heavy democrat side, but the republicans have a very strong base there too...the DIFFERENCE is that they don't just sit and let things be. Issues are addressed...people vote...some disagree with the outcome. But, they took action on the issues. Why bother to complain about issues that lawmakers are doing nothing about if we are not going to kick them out the door when the election comes back around? My personal opinion is this...I don't see conservative in OK; I don't see liberal in OK. I see a drive to leave things as they are and do nothing. And that's sad...folks associate ALL change with spending money/more taxes which then means the idea is liberal, evil, and downright immoral. Tell me this--investing some money in things that we need and use in our everyday lives--how is that liberal? If we are investing some $ in something that we are gonna actually use, how is that liberal? because if wise spending on things that benefit our community and state is what you call liberal, then I am probably as liberal as it gets...in that case I can only imagine what conservative means.

This has more to do with the oil and gas industry booming. I don't know how much can be credited to "conservative values". What about the 80's bust? Trust me, if the industry tanks again we are in big trouble. And like route66gal said, watch out for CHK buyout. I really hope that doesn't happen...

There's some truth to that although I originally had about 12 other cities on the list.

Certainly age and location have a few things to do with places which develop a diverse economy and rich culture. However, it's not the whole of it.

But age and oceans don't explain a place like Dallas which OK loses lots of its best and brightest to.

Denver might be another example. Durango, Santa Fe, Minneapolis. None of those places are 400 years old or have oceans.

Mental illness is as much nurture as nature. It is also a common measure of social health of a population and it's attendant quality of life. I didn't say it had anything to do with anything other than general quality of life.

I agree we are making progress. How OKC has developed in the past 15 years is exciting to me. I'm excited to see what happens in the future. It's one of the reasons I'm happy to stay here.