Why Can't The Greatest Country On Earth Be Like The Australians?

The source of this quote is questionable, so I won't credit any publication, but am using it only as I received it to lay a foundation for thought and possible debate.

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday
to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to
head off potential terror attacks

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John
Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard,
hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if
they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws
were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a
country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is
not for you," he said on national television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws
governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another the
Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law,
independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the
opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then,
that's a better option," Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said
those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other
country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that
Muslims who did not want to accept local values should 'clear off'.
"Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want
to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can
basically clear off," he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by
saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it. I am
tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some
individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we
have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that
our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor
do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming
to Australia. However, there are a few things that those who have
recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to
understand. This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has
served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As
Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language
and our own lifestyle.
This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials
and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom
We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese,
Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to
become part of our society, Learn the language!
Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right;
wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on
Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly
documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of
our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another
part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.
We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why All we ask is
that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with
us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go," then
you should seriously consider a move to another part of the planet. We
are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really
don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep
your culture, but do not force it on others."

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs,
or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other
great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."



Hopefully, and soon, American citizens will
find the backbone to start speaking and voting the same truths!

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Could be because a lot of people including the President want this to become a theocratic state...

Also, there's that nasty thing called freedom of speach. I'm not sure what Australia's law is in regards to that, but few countrys have such tolerance as the U.S.

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... or at least purport to have such tolerance...

Aren't we discussing apples and oranges here? I sincerely think that we are talking about our security, our way of life. You know the old saying, "One does not have the freedom to yell FIRE in a theature when there is none, thus causing people to trample themselves while in the process of saving themselves" Isn't there a rational "in-between" that preserves free speech and privacy without literally threating our lives? Is your opinion that phone calls and emails should not be censored (with certain criteria) either?

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In addition, we are discussing an irrantional facism, with the sole purpose of eliminating us and our way of live, even at the expense of doing so to themselves. Are we to stand by and let what we purport to be our values and practices turn around and bite us in the butt and destroy us physically?

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GM:

It's a very complex question. To simply attack the Muslim's way of life because of their nutty political rhetoric, or their suggestions that we adopt sharia law goes against what we as Americans believe in (or should believe in).

These immigrants are participating in the democratic discussion of how this country ought to be run. If they think we should allow our President to be selected be a handful of Imams (or whatever) and that we adopt Hammarabi's Code, that is absolutely, 100% their right.

It is also our right to remind them that they are a small minority with no prayer of having these things.

I think the above is not suggesting that Australia purge these people from its territory. The suggestion seems to be that if these folks don't like the law of their current state, they ought to go find one more amenable to their way of life -- a perfectly legitimate suggestion as places like Tehran are completely livable.

The only time I personally have a problem with these folks is when they find it appropriate to do violence in order to accomplish their ends. That is when their conduct offends my moral sensibilties. Those either doing violence, or encouraging it are vermin to be ground under the heel of civilized society.

I honestly think that we're heading towards an ultimate confrontation with those who would do violence in order to impose their way of life on others. I hope that we don't do as we did in the 20th century and ignore the problem until it's out of control as we did with Hitler when he invaded Czechoslovakia, Austria, etc.

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#1/ If they were, indeed following the democratic way of change, I would view the whole process differently. I personally don't consider blowing oneself up while making a point, whether destroying 1 or 100 others, not the democratic way of having one's say. #2/ Call me an alarmist, but just as the Mexican population (legal or illegal) will someday outnumber our own, and thus, making us the minority) I believe that that the Muslim extremists intend the same. Then, we would be in the minority, then what? what happens to the democratic system then? I guess it's just a race between who has the most kids, Mexicans or Muslims...(remember, I said to leave PC at the door)

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1) I'm not aware of any Islamic person "blowing themselves up" in Australia in order to try and impose Sharia law. These people were asking for a separate set of courts for Muslims who would submit themselves to Sharia law (or something like that, or at least that was the proposal in England).

2) Mexicans outnumbering us? The population of the U.S. is around 300 million. 240 million approximately of whom are white and of non-hispanic origin. Of the remaining 60 million, about 35 million are of hispanic origin.

The population of Mexico is around 100 million. If the entire population of Mexico emigrated to the United States, we would still outnumber them easily.

For your proposal to work, the Mexicans (who are not Muslim extremists) would have to stop immigrating to the U.S., and the 2% of the Muslims in the United States (only a fraction of which are extremists) would have to grow exponentially while the other groups did not.

I don't see that happening.

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#1The situation that I am referring to did not begin in Austraila, nor did it begin when the WTC was blown to bits. Do you not sincerely believe tht if someone that imigrates into another country other then their original birth country, they should be the party to intregrate, not the other way around? Are you just reciting PC jargon, or do you actually believe in what you are voicing? Are you actually advocating that our own way of government be used to destroy us as a country?#2. you are basing your answer on stats. How can stats be reliable when no one knows exactly how many legal/illegal Mexican immigrants are in the US? No one/I have no proposal other than to have those who immigrat to this country respect the laws of this country and the way of life that it espouses. Furthermore, like the Mexicans, no one really knows the stats on Muslims imigrations either. One cannot produce stats on illegal actions. Plus, no one knows how many Muslims are extremists...there are extremists that are home grown, so who can tell, can you? The entire population of Mexico has good reason to immigrate, there is noting in Mexico for them. And yes, Mexicans do reproduce at a faster rate (again, leaving PC at the door)Seven million (which is the estimated Mexican work force, and that's just the work force, not their family) can become 50 million in a generation.

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1) I'm saying that if they can participate in the Democratic process and convince us that we need Sharia law, then power to 'em. I showed that Muslims only make up about 1% to 2% of the U.S. population, and therefore, would have a whole lot of convincing to do in order to replace the current U.S. legal system.

In other words, I invite them to try, but it simply ain't gonna happen. They are free to "demand" or advocate whatever position they want to. We allow people to advocate polygamy, having sexual relations with children, etc. Though we forbid the acts themselves, the ability to advocate fringe behavior is what keeps the government from restricting even the advocacy of normal behavior.

-- and really, what is the imposition of Sharia Law but another brand of "tort reform"?

2) The HIGH estimates of illegals are in the 20 million range. Many of those are actually reported in the census. So maybe we're talking about 50 million people of hispanic origin? I'm basing all of my numbers on the 2000 census and projections based on that.

In Mexico, the birth rate is currently 20.69 per 1000 people (2006 est. from the CIA World Factbook).

In the United States, the birth rate is 14.14 births per 1000 people (2006 est, same source).

The CIA World Factbook doesn't have an estimate for the number of Hispanics in the U.S. because the phrase takes in too much, and "Hispanic" is not really a race as there are black, white, and indiginous people who are all said to be "Hispanic" without really sharing any racial traits.

At any rate, the census bureau estimates 42.7 million hispanics currently in the U.S.

Further census bureau estimates using current birthrates place the Hispanic population at 24% of our total or 102.6 million. Only approximately 64% of Hispanics in the U.S. are of Mexican origin, so no, not even in the remote future will they outnumber "us."

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html

My figures on the # of Muslims come from Muslim websites claiming 2%. I don't know if it's that high, but even saying that it is ad argumentum makes your proposition that they will overtake us population-wise fall flat on its face.

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#1 Since when did the majority rule in America? Besides, there are those of other races that are PC that will join right in.#1/ You are using Muslim stats to prove your point? You are basing all of your statements on the 2000 stats? Something wrong with that.

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1) The majority rule when it is the minority proposing change. In fact, the minority rule when the majority are proposing change -- or at least, they have a lot of power in the process. You might want to look into exactly how our congress is put together.

Your point was that there will be "more of them than us," I showed that such a thing is a numerical impossibility. You say that they will join "other races that are PC," but you failed to say what exactly they plan to join in.

I'm not really sure what you're even trying to argue here. Let me suggest that if you are trying to 'poke holes' in my arguments, you at least propose some counter-argument. In other words, even if what I'm proposing is false (which I don't see how it could be), the potential falseness does not make what you are proposing any more true.

2) I'm using projections based on the 2000 census which is as good as stats can be in 2006. Those projections have historically been pretty accurate. If you have a better source for statistics, please let me know.

3) Finally, it occurs to me that you're letting an editorial from an American source define what Australians are. I find your choice of sources to be interesting. The facts are that the Muslims asked for Sharia law, and the nation of Australia collectively laughed in their face. I can't imagine that the U.S. would be different in its response.

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If 2006 stats were not better than 2000 stats, they wouldn't bother to collect them. I will agree with you on your last point:The facts are that the Muslims asked for Sharia law, and the nation of Australia collectively laughed in their face. I can't imagine that the U.S. would be different in its response

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One more question: Why would someone want to imigrate to the Us and then try to change it if that wasn't their purpose in the first place?

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The census bureau only conducts a census every 10 years. 2006 statistics are only projections based upon the 2000 census.

Therefore, there really aren't any "2006 stats" which actually account for every single person in the U.S.

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Who cares what their purpose is? If they can convince enough people that it should happen, then it should happen.

That's never going to happen, but if they participate in the democratic process and make a compelling argument for Sharia law, and we change our Constitution accordinly, then I don't think we can really complain. America is not a nation of white folks. It's a nation composed of every people within it.

The Muslims of which you speak are few and far between anyhow. Most come here to escape things like Sharia law.

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I don't remember saying or hearing anything about "white folks" in this discussion.

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GM - then exactly how do you define "Americans"?

White folks? People who were born here? I'm not sure what that means.

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Why all the word games? We both know the definition of American. One is either an American by birth or by "legal" immigration, then going through the "legal" process of becoming an American. Now, that's the legal part of it, although there are many that have done so that are not American in their purpose, their goals, their hearts. I am not referring to religion, color of skin, whatever. I am referring to the undermining and distruction of America as a country. If you cannot or will not admit that, then you must get more satisfaction in debating than you do in seeing the truth. As an aside, even though I do and have disagreed with you in the past and will probably do so in the future, I do appreciate the effort that you put forth in an "honest" debate, taking the time to research and respectfully share it.

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If someone wants to use the American process of law in order to change the law, how in the heck is that unamerican?

I'm not using word games, I'm just trying to get you to define the terms you want to argue over.

"Undermining" and "destruction" are two other words -- do you mean that these folks want us all dead? Are you saying that they want to elect Democrats?

GM - I just don't see how you can possibly argue over these terms without first defining them. Your thoughts are pretty unorganized and unclear, so it's difficult to respond adequately.

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Ding! Ding!
To your corners!

Now, that WAS funny! :tweeted:

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You are absolutely correct in that I could and should define exactly what I'm saying. #1/ In answer to your first sentence of your last quote: The same way that they used American planes to destroy the WTC. #2/Yes, they want us all dead, and they make no bones about it..who is they? They are those who are known by us that say it outright and those that are unknown to us at this point that are plotting and not saying it outright. I am not referring especially to ethnicity, I am referring to ideology, which I believe is very hard to include in any census or census projections. Actually, you mentioned democrats in jest, (I think)...they might be a close second to the threat :tweeted:

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Here's the thing -- identifying who "they" are is a tricky businss. This country isn't about to start kicking out people because of religious wacko behavior. If we did, we could probably just start rounding people up at Benny Hinn shows, then conduct mass deportations of anyone who has donated to any TBN 'ministry.' We could ship them to... I don't know actually. I can't think of any country with more Christianist zealots who want to impose their law onto the rest of the country. It may have no fun name like "Sharia" (which does sound scary, I'll admit), but I think their goals are essentially the same. Lo and behold, "they" have committed terrorist acts in support of their nutty views as well. But I digress...

The trouble is that if we identify one group for removal, how do we tag them for removal?

Do we round up all individuals who attend certain churches?

Do we round up all individuals who say certain things we disagree with?

Does the U.S. get into the business of holding political prisoners?

The trouble with any of that, however, is that apparently those who are members of terrorist cells will go to great lengths to blend in with society. They will remain quiet, they will not go to church, they will try to remain as invisible as possible.

It is only when, for example, they are pulled over with a few hundred cell phones in their car that we can really do anything. As I've said, I think we do an okay job of that.

Unless you're advocating that the U.S. start rounding up people who disagree with majority views, and start laying down foundations for political prisons (maybe a gulag in Alaska?), then I'm not sure exactly what you're attempting to advocate here.

As to the Dems being a threat, I think they're about as much a threat as the Republicans. If we round up these terrorists, I can think of several of these political types who belong in a gulag, e.g., Ted Stevens.

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