Wow. What a bunch of whining.

Selfishness and greed are what built America. Capitalism is greed, ambition, all that good stuff which puts food on your table at the end of the day.

What more moral system could there possibly be than one which rewards people exactly as much as society as a whole chooses to value their individual contribution? I suppose we think cars and gasoline and other such products are pretty great as they are the juice that makes our society "go." Why shouldn't the providers of that product make money?

They only made a 10% profit. That's nothing to write home about really. They're just a big 'ol company.

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Your friend's company is probably not publicly traded or subject to SEC regulations. Try getting one of the big accounting firms to sign onto an annual report where the company is cooking the books. Good luck with that.

No one wants to be the next Arthur Anderson.

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Theory on the early Socialist leaning of our home state.
(failed socialist as it has everywhere)
Could it be that this state was socialist leaning due to the fact free government land was given to mostly anglo settlers. All they had to do was run out there and drive a stake in the ground.
Yet that Government handout also displaced the native of native America.
That socialist experiment was not very fair if you were a native American.
Big government making Big Pioneers even richer.
just a thought.
Respond before you react.

No, not whining. A reminder that Oklahoma is full of people who would consider it whining.

You think greed puts food on my table? Selfishness? These are not my Oklahoma values. I play the game that we all must play to "get ahead." I save wisely and (shock!) even own CHK stock. But, greed is not a value I support.

Frankly, I wrote the, "note to myself," because I am shocked. I am rarely shocked anymore.

It's all about capital here. Nobody mentions labor. Yet, labor creates all wealth. But, the suits win again and pass along the profits to those who did no work at all. I'm worn out. For the first time ever, I am wondering if I have made a mistake staying here. In reality, I could work anywhere. Maybe Pete, Kerry, Hot Rod, East Coast Okie, on and on and on... have all done the right thing - and left.

I started out in partisan politics and working in state government in the late seventies. I was part of, what I consider, some pretty good fights. I stayed active in politics with my new (real) career and became involved with organized labor through my labor union, where I've held a card for a better part of the last thirty years as a member of the Writers Guild of America (west). I mostly just did my job, but was active when I needed to be in the WGA(w). Later, I became very involved.

I have seen greed close-up in the last year when our union shut down the keyboards as major studios wanted to negotiate a contract that gave us paltry sums for DVD sales and New Media downloadable content. We brought a good part of what you see on TV and the movies to a halt. For the first time, a lot of people understood that it's not just the big studios, the names in lights, the mega-salaries of late night comedy that made broadcast news & entertainment happen in this country. It took people like me. People who sit in solitude and write and write and write and keep on writing. The content keeps on flowing and nothing changes. We take it all for granted. But then, you go awhile without the lowly writer and look what happens. Greed brought the bosses to a standstill with our union as we spoke with one voice. Together, as an organized labor union, we had a voice. As individuals - we would have had to accept what was offered or they would move on and let the writers in India or beginners do the writing. We wanted our share. In every industry LABOR wants their share.

By the way, for the most part --- we won!
But the fight for workers everywhere goes on. Wal-Mart workers, for example, desperately need a labor union.

Midtowner, You said it as well as anybody: "Capitalism is greed, ambition, all that good stuff..."

I dream of a better world.

So you took your product and held out for a better price and got it?

Congratulations. Capitalism and greed work! Good for you. You think that labor unions work outside of capitalism and greed? Nope. They're part of the machine.

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Is it not crossing the picket line to write a strike sign?

No, we withheld work from our own bosses in an act of labor solidarity. That has nothing to do with capitalism. The greed was on the part of members of AMPTP (the studios, producers, etc.). They felt like they could re-sell our work and pay us - nothing! Unions are strongest in socialist countries. I see where you're going with that, but the analogy falls apart in several ways.

Huh? What picket line would we cross to add a signature to our own solidarity signs? There are about 25 of those signs and they were signed at labor actions outside the studios and AMPTP. In other words - our own picket lines!

Solitude,
never give up you dream for a better world.
I certainly don't.
We may have different ideas of what that world may look like, however in the end we are Americans. The hope of the world. A group of people who have made terrible mistakes, yet provide the best hope for a better life.
The fact that we can disagree over things that in the end are not life and death is beautiful. You are pro union I no longer am. I believe at one time they were very much needed. I think for the most part they have outlived their usefulness.
Today I see Union bosses living large while the ones they represent struggling.
They have become what they fight.
Keep you chin up, we like your posts.
may not agree but they make you think.

We can certainly agree on that point. A good place to say good night. I usually stay up most of the night, but I have been working some seriously long hours. One nice thing, I almost always keep a browser open and take a peek at OKCTalk on a (too) regular basis. Thank God for a great program called Darkroom that completely takes over the screen and allows you to write like a typewriter. It takes some serious doings to get out of it to browse, check email and all the other e-distractions. It's great for anyone who needs to write without interruption. But most of the time, I keep OKCTalk and a news site open in the other tabs. Little breaks here and there. But now - it's off to bed.

How so?

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You know solitude, I am really sick of seeing your statement "labor creates wealth." You act as though the only people adding value to this society are those who are smashing bricks in the court yard. The fact of the matter is that all of us work hard in our own ways, whether that is doing a manual job, a white collar job, or yes even managing a project or a business. Quite frankly it is arrogant and down-right disrespectful of you to assume that there are "laborers" and then "everyone else" who doesn't do jack but set around and soak up money and plot how they're going to screw everyone else some more. This line of reasoning is easily dismissable and is not helping your cause.

And another thing, you can smash bricks in a courtyard or plunk out text on a type writer all day long, but unless you have smart people who can figure out something people actually want to buy, and unless you have rich people who can invest in you for those months and months while your project is in development and not making any money then your labor is fruitless. Labor alone absolutely does not create wealth. If that were the case there'd be an awful lot of rich tinkerers out there.

I'd like to also know if you think that the nice folks on the west coast who saw double-digit gains in their home's appreciation over the last several years should also be subjected to a windfall profits tax? Many of them, even with recent declines, made hundreds of thousands of dollars off the sale of their homes and no "labor" was involved. I'm just curious if you are consistent or not... if the face of who you are taxing influences whether or not you would actually want to tax them or not.

It's basic economics, dismayed. In the beginning, with every dime, somebody labored. That doesn't mean just "smashing bricks," and other so-called "blue-collar" jobs. I mean the white collar insurance adjuster, the woman at the receptionist desk for a construction company, anybody who receives a paycheck without exploiting labor themselves.

Money makes money, yes. However, the money that is used to make more money was created by somebody doing something.

Disrespectful? I'm talking about the vast masses. Who am I being disrespectful to? The masters of these wage slaves? Well, so be it. They are, in most cases, using tax advantages created by their powerful political friends, corporate welfare, etc, to make their mountains of cash. I have no pity or a need to respect getting rich off the work of others. I disagree with that in a fundamental way. So we're not going to agree.

You sound like a shill for capital when you question my "labor creates all wealth" line. They would like you to believe it's not true. The fact is - it's absolutely true. Remember, money to make money, that makes more money, that makes even more money --- came from somewhere. The infancy of all wealth was labor. Period. Maybe it was yourself in your own business - great! But when you take the business to new levels and allow yourself to get richer and richer when your employees go home with no health insurance and piddly wages (so you can move up from Quail Creek to the McMansions of Edmond to Gallardia) - all on the backs of poorly paid workers --- that's wrong. We'll agree to disagree.

Disagreeing. That is still allowed in George Bush's America? I haven't checked the news today, I may be wrong.

Oh solitude you were doing so good until you hit on President Bush.
That is where so many mess up.
When there is nothing left to offer ...oh yeah it's george bush...
I am not defending the President, just can't blame him on every case, as you can't blame a democrat for everything.
Never heard if you would sell me car for 250k?
Or my joke if writing a picket sign is crossing union line?
did you post anything while on strike? and is that a conflict?
Seriously though were you financially hurt by the strike?
How about the union bosses? So many "workers" have become slaves to the BIG Unions.

Your world view seems to be limited to those who create things, and those who fleece them for money. If that is the world you live in, may I suggest you find another line of employment because clearly your job sucks.

One final comment, because often I like your posts, is that your viewpoint here is no better than the extremely conservative people you often complain about on this board. I don't agree with you and suddenly I'm working for an oil company, raping the little guy of all his money and benefits, and palling around with George Bush. Life has a lot of shades of gray to it. Your posts don't seem to reflect that reality lately... which to me basically means your thoughts have no basis in reality. If you're trying to win people over to your point of you, I assure you that you are doing the opposite. Congratulations you've just become the Bush International Strategy of our message board.

I'm not going to talk politics in this post. I'm going to respond to the post from dismayed above.

It may seem to you, and maybe others, that I have some sort of limited worldview due to the passion I bring to a topic that is rarely discussed in this country. I love my job and, no, it doesn't "suck." Believe it or not, I live in the same world you live in. I am married, have children, love my family, watch football, own stock!, take vacations, love the simple things in life, have friends who have vastly different political views than mine and generally - just enjoy life.

Thank you, I often like your posts as well. I try, (but don't always succeed), in not being personal in political topics. I find, frankly, that my political views draw far more vindictive anger toward me personally than the run of the mill conservative poster at OKCTalk. My views are seen as very 'foreign' to most here in Oklahoma and yes, it's a minority viewpoint. So, when I express these things - it seems wild-eyed and all encompassing. I can assure you - it is not. It is but a small part of my life. The complaints I have with several of the more conservative posters is that they sometimes don't appear to be thinking for themselves and only parroting talk radio memes. Maybe to your surprise, I respect the views of those who truly think their ideas through - no matter how far they are from mine.

The comment directed at you was because you made fun of my use of the motto, "labor creates all wealth." You are absolutely right, life has many shades of grey, and all sides in political debate need to remember that. We're a polarized society in so many ways. If my posts, in this political forum, have made you think I don't see the shades of grey, I am sorry. It's really not true at all. I do. I live with it every day and rarely mention my politics to even friends. I find it skews attitudes toward our views of the other on topics that it shouldn't. An example might be that someone doesn't like what I wrote in these political forums, so when they read a post of mine about Bricktown or Midtown, they are quick to find reason that something I said was wrong or think (wrongly) that my opinion on the topic is skewed because of my politics. That's why I wouldn't care if Pete decided there are lots of outlets for political discussion on the web and scrapped these particular forums.

Many times I feel I stand alone in my beliefs here on the board. I defend my positions and try to offer my best reasoning. I can't deny that reading you write that I am "doing the opposite" when it comes to making a point or helping people in understanding my views (even a little) doesn't sting.

More than anything, after reading your first few lines, I know you have a very distorted view of my life, my job, etc. I'm just a normal guy. Really! No horns, people say I smile a lot, I love life, my family, my city - and I even love this little message board where I feel I know so many of you. I live inside those shades of grey all day - every day. To me, ones views on economics does not a person make. I don't feel that way about you or anybody else here. I hope my economic views do not color your perception of me as a person; I'm really not anything like what you seem to be thinking about me.

Have a good weekend.

Solitude
Would be curious your thought on thesis connecting the Oklahoma Land run and early Socialist leanings of the SOONER state. Above post, up there somewhere.
Actually wrote a paper on it in college. Made a very good grade, drove the professor crazy personally at least he said it made him think. "And as much as he hated to admit it I may have something there."

Native -- if you want to see how little the early Oklahomans trusted the government or Corporations, just read the Oklahoma Constitution. It's probably one of, if not the most "power to the people" state Constitutions out there. For example, it requires a popular vote to approve every tax hike (which is why our taxes are so low). It set up the Corporation Commission, which was supposed to keep big monopolistic utility providers from overcharging the people (they didn't foresee that a big company like Chesepeake might come along the pike and start offering excellent jobs to the more compliant commissioners though).

-- at any rate, it's good stuff.

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