While I am not a lawyer, and I have not been sued, Thank God!, Knock on wood and all that, but what little I know about the adversarial system we have here in Oklahoma makes me think it "sucks." I stole that word from another thread.

It seems to me that too much of the adversarial system is designed to milk money from the client while Justice can go to the place where there is a burning fire.

And remember, the judges who are sitting on the benches were once struggling lawyers doing the very same thing.

Lame beginning, I know, but hopefully it will spark some discussion.

Very lame beginning

Do you have a better idea for a criminal/civil justice system?

Would you prefer a Roman Law based system? Give us soemthing to go on. I think the common law has done an amazing job of adapting to today's society. I've got a pretty good view of the system from where I'm sitting, and it's improving daily.

As far as lawyers 'milking' their clients... Do you want to hazard a guess as to what percentage of cases -- criminal or civil go to trial? (small claims excluded)

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Oki, you asked a question two months ago. I answered it and posed one to you. Was it too difficult to respond to or did you just forget?

I await your learned response.

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I don't see a problem with lawyers milking their clients. After all, they're the ones with the expertise. Had to go through grueling law school to get that expertise.

Oh, wait a minute. I forgot. This is the dude that doesn't think professional school is very demanding and obliging.

Jack, most lawyers do not "milk" their clients. There are the unfortunate few that do that. A lawyer (in most cases) has only one thing to sell -- his or her time. Most that I know are very honest stand-up people who work very hard for their clients to obtain the best possible outcome. It's a free market system, and people won't shell out $200-$500/hr if they don't think the eventual outcome will be worth it. Lawyers simply perform very valuable tasks for their clients and will never be paid more than what their services are worth -- there's more than enough competition to keep 'em honest!

Many also do lots of pro-bono (charity) work. As a law student, I'm involved with Oklahoma Lawyers for Children, and time permitting, I'll stay involved.

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To put you into my perspective when I posted that first post, let me say that from what I remember, the new area for threads had sat vacant with zero inputs for days---maybe weeks (the entire governmental segment).

Now, if I had had the answer to it all or even knew as much as I might like to know, I would have been more specific I am sure, but I am just a layman who has not been formally schooled at the fine art of "milking clients" if you will.

Maybe the lawyers do not "milk" clients, but even you, Midtowner, said some do, and I am near positive that you are correct; I will step out on the ledge and make the bold statement that we have at least some less-than-perfect people in every occupation---that is every one whether it be construction, lawyering, junkmen, even doctoring and I hope saying that does not resurrect another sparks show.

Now, let's take a specific item:

I know this person who was involved with a probate down in eastern Oklahoma. There were several who owned a house as tenants in common, and one of them died. Yep, probate was required to get rid of the house.

Admitted, the house was not worth that much, but by the time the probate was done, the lawyer got the entire share of the person's share who had died. Not necessarily a bad thing, huh? No, I am not saying that to be facetious; I really believe it; at least, the others got rid of the burden of owning the house they did not want.

But what went on during the probate? All the meetings went on in the judge's chambers, and most of them went on just between the judge and the lawyer, and that was after the administrator had driven several hundred miles to be at the hearing. You are correct in wondering what this has to do with anything, and I am not sure, but as we know, the legislature makes the laws, but the lawyers and judges interpret those statutes.

Surely you have heard the horror stories about the costs of probate---hey! that is the way the lawyers sell those over-priced revocable trusts. Cannot you hear the lawyers screaming now as the legislature has a thought of allowing people to deed property to someone upon his death---not sure what it is officially named, but it is where a person can make a deed now, and it will go into effect upon the death of the maker---kinda like the pay-on-death aspects of bank accounts. Talk about a blow to the living trust boiler platers where the minimum cost is in the range of $2500.00, and the legal assistant most likely does all the work except the actual meeting with the client.

Now, the above really has not got an adversary, and this thread is an airing of the adversarial system, but not really, it is in my opinion just lawyering in general.

I will ask if you, Midtowner, know how much it costs to meet the 20-day requirement of an Answer to a Petition when the lawyer has made the simple effort of just denying all the allegations while admitting the obviously-true allegations, and he throws in a few affirmative defenses just to confuse the issue---yeah! that is wide open, but assume that the lawyer is just fishing and buying time just to meet the 20-day requirement hoping for his client that the issue will go away, yet he is keeping his fingers crossed that it will develop into a lawyer-full-employment-act issue for two lawyers.

By the way, what will be your particular interest as a lawyer after you go into practice?

Jack said: " This is the dude that doesn't think professional school is very demanding and obliging."

The "that" should be "who."

Just kidding, so don't get your dander up.

Oki -- I feel your pain. Probate is often unnecessarily expensive. I'm not 100% sure about Oklahoma probate law, but I know that ownership interest as a tennant in common is freely deviseable/alienable either inter vivos or after death. The lawyer should have known this. Did your person die intestate? It can then get to be a fairly thorny issue when determining unknown heirs or taking from them. To take from unknown heirs, you have to publish (I think) for 21 days, three straight weeks in the county paper of record. You also have to do probate to allow for claims against the estate from creditors, etc. There are some expenses which as a matter of public policy MUST happen. This is why it's smart to get a will drafted, trusts and all that fancy stuff to determine where your stuff goes when you head to the great beyond.

As far as how much it costs to answer a simple petition.. remember, a lawyer has only one thing to sell -- his or her time. Oftentimes, it's not so simple as answering a petition, a lawyer will do a lot of other research to determine what kind of defenses he or she has available to them. Those might not turn up on the petition, but sometimes, the research can be very involved. In many cases, when it comes to some of the civil claims we take in (non personal injury), I'll personally spend as much as 8 hours researching the law and writing a memo about what the court will probably rule on the question, the applicable law, precedent, etc. before anything gets filed at all (I bill at a paralegal rate which is a pretty good deal for the client ).

I'd like to see the legislature address the probate system and set up a court similar to the worker's comp system. I think it could be a lot cheaper and a lot more simple (we handle a few complex probates and I *HATE* them). We never get the simple stuff .

When I go into practice, I'll probably involve myself in family law, probate, civil suits, business law, and eminent domain work. Basically, it's what dad does as I'm hoping his client base will stick with me

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Oki -- I feel your pain. Probate is often unnecessarily expensive. I'm not 100% sure about Oklahoma probate law, but I know that ownership interest as a tennant in common is freely deviseable/alienable either inter vivos or after death. The lawyer should have known this. Did your person die intestate? It can then get to be a fairly thorny issue when determining unknown heirs or taking from them. To take from unknown heirs, you have to publish (I think) for 21 days, three straight weeks in the county paper of record. You also have to do probate to allow for claims against the estate from creditors, etc. There are some expenses which as a matter of public policy MUST happen. This is why it's smart to get a will drafted, trusts and all that fancy stuff to determine where your stuff goes when you head to the great beyond.

As far as how much it costs to answer a simple petition.. remember, a lawyer has only one thing to sell -- his or her time. Oftentimes, it's not so simple as answering a petition, a lawyer will do a lot of other research to determine what kind of defenses he or she has available to them. Those might not turn up on the petition, but sometimes, the research can be very involved. In many cases, when it comes to some of the civil claims we take in (non personal injury), I'll personally spend as much as 8 hours researching the law and writing a memo about what the court will probably rule on the question, the applicable law, precedent, etc. before anything gets filed at all (I bill at a paralegal rate which is a pretty good deal for the client ).

I'd like to see the legislature address the probate system and set up a court similar to the worker's comp system. I think it could be a lot cheaper and a lot more simple (we handle a few complex probates and I *HATE* them). We never get the simple stuff .

When I go into practice, I'll probably involve myself in family law, probate, civil suits, business law, and eminent domain work. Basically, it's what dad does as I'm hoping his client base will stick with me

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