So, you're most upset that MAPS doesn't spend a disproportionate amount of money in your neighborhood, correct? In other words "where's mine?"

The reality is that the city is spread out way too much for any initiative to take on the improvement of EVERY neighborhood at once. It would just take too much resources. However, revenue generated by tax dollars in the city is IN FACT spent in your neighborhood. And the less of it the city generates the less of it there will be to spend on your neighborhood.

The strategy is to build large marquee attractions that attract more people and more visitors to Oklahoma City, because, well, that's where the money comes from. You can not build ANYTHING of any significance if we were to divide every project up equally amongst every sector of the city. The economies of scale just aren't there to support it. So, we strengthen the core and build things that can actually compete with other cities of our size as a means to generate a net increase in revenue and economic influx.

Sure, we can come to everyone's neighborhood and paint every house, but it would not generate any more revenue for the city, because there would be no net gain in our balance of trade, that is, no new revenue coming into the city.

So, you may not be able to walk out your door and touch the impact of any of these projects directly. But it's very likely you will if we don't pass it as more and more development leaves the city and we have MORE blighted areas because we did not continue to invest in our city to ensure future revenue. In fact, the blighted areas we do have right now are the lingering affects of a city that failed to reinvest in itself for so long. On the flip side there are many neighborhoods in the core that were considered blighted not to long ago that have greatly benefited from the strengthening and rebirth of the city.

The bottom line is that you can not detach yourself from your community. I know that's not really the mid-America way, but it's true. The revenue generated (or not generated) in every part of the city is felt in every other part and the only way to see significant increases in economic development is to focus on large projects that are competitive rather than a bunch of mediocre projects whose positive affects are minimized by their very lack of scale.

Basically, if you want money for EVERY neighborhood including yours, we have to increase our revenue stream significantly first. The only way to do that is through large centralized projects that have centralized access.

BTW, there will not be one single dollar more spent in my neighborhood than yours. But I work here and the business I work for is located in the city (for now). As my city improves, the community improves, business improves, my life improves. I in no way fail to grasp my connection to the community of Oklahoma City and that's why I know we need bigger and better developments and infrastructure just to stay competitive in our own metropolitan area, let alone the region, in attracting new businesses and services.

I don't live downtown, but I live and work in Oklahoma City and the impact MAPS3 can have on my livelihood and that of my family is not very hard to see, imo.

In the end, yes, there is no MAPS 4 ME or MAPS JUST FOR YOU, but I don't see any benefit in spiting the progress of the city as a whole just because there isn't a disproportionate share of direct money being spent in my district.

No, you're right, that's got to be it. I'm not voting for MAPS3 because none of it is about me. If my name isn't mentioned in the Ballot, I'm going to vote No every time.

Grow up and stop trying to push off the issue as something personal. I've stated numerous times why I'm not voting.

Pete Brzycki posted that he didn't want to post pictures of the blight outside of the Downtown area because of how negatively it would reflect on the City. These aren't new areas of the city, this has been going on for years and years. Long enough that the enourmous tax revenues from the previous 2 MAPS initiative should have been able to counter the downward turn.

Yes, I said "me" and "I". I said that because that's how every other No voter like me feels. We continue to see DT glorified and improved and draped in affection by the city council, while they continue to approve every single half-assed stripmall and bingo hall and pawn shop they can cram into the rest of the city, ignoring all the crumbling remnants of previous stripmalls, bingo halls and pawn shops.

You're 100% correct that it's not MAPS 4 ME, unless you're one of the few who live Downtown and will reap 100% of the benefits from this.

I guess MAPS 4 DT is a better description.

Of course, that's if the City council actually uses the money for what they listed.

I'm quite sure the trails, sidewalks, and senior aquatic centers are not downtown. The downtown streetcar is designed as the focus of what many of us hope will become a citywide mass transit program, with potential extension even to the suburbs. So, I'm not sure how people living downtown will reap 100% of the benefits, since almost half of them won't even be built downtown.

I apologize. I have not researched your entire anti-maps opus, but I guess you are now saying that you don't care that it's not for you or your district, you are just bitter that most of it will be built in the city's core and that you are bitter that there are (gasp!) still some blighted areas of the city and since there are still blighted areas of the city, then MAPS is a failure and we should stop reinvesting in our city. And that all the positively impacted areas of MAPS should be disregarded because there are still some blighted areas out there. I guess if we can't fix 'em all, we shouldn't fix any of 'em. Right? the reality is that if Pete took pictures of all the blighted areas in 1990 and all the blighted areas in 2009, he would have less pictures to take in 2009.

I guess we need MAPS for EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW or, what? Nothing?

I will admit that I am failing to grasp that you are actually sincere. There's got to be some reason you are against it other than just because it's downtown (where should it go? Putnam City? I-240?) or that there are still some blighted areas in the city.

I didn't make it personal. YOU did (my emphasis):

Sorry if I assumed you were talking about yourself when you said "my".

It's the economy folks. End of story.

I'm sincere in the fact that I think there's at least a dozen things more important than a white water rapids ride downtown. Or a set of Aquatic centers. I can't give you a specific location where improvements should be made because they're ALL OVER THE CITY. The only exception is the Downtown area which is THRIVING.

I'm sincere in the fact that I think the wording of the ballot and the proposal is specifically designed to circumvent the OK Constitution. There's no other reason for them to refuse to reword it other than that they plan to use the "Capital Improvement" label to earmark money for projects that wouldn't ever be considered for MAPS to begin with.

I'm sincere in the fact that despite the city proclaiming MAPS1 and M4K huge sucesses(which I don't dispute they were), it seems that NONE of the tax windfall created by the previous 2 MAPS programs made it into the restoration or even basic maintenance of the City outside of Downtown. I don't just mean lawns mowed or cops hired. I'm talking about everything that is being promised to the rest of the city in terms of jobs, saftey, etc.. in regards to MAPS3. The same things were promised before and the city continues to degrade while the focal point of MAPS3 is Thriving already.

Is it too much to ask that the rest of the City be brought up to the same level as the downtown area before we spend money on things like parks and water rides?

Although anyone who has actually driven south of Reno downtown knows that the level there is about as low as it is conceivably possible for a city to be, and places like Film Row are just beginning to experience renewal, not to mention parts of Deep Deuce, east of Broadway, etc, seriously, can you honestly say that downtown is at some phenomenal "level", when I consider it to be on the cusp of actually being acceptable?

Regardless, for argument's sake, let's say that downtown is wonderful and perfect and needs no improvement. What precisely do you think should be done to "bring the rest of the city up to the same level as the downtown"? Give us your recommendations. What should we be spending tax money on? Obviously not sidewalks, since we've already got a bond issue for them, and they were going to be included in MAPS 3. Obviously not roads, because they were provided for by the bond issue in 12/07. Obviously not schools, since MAPS for Kids will be addressing them. What public works do you think will improve the rest of the city. And, since there are many very nice parts of the city, what parts specifically do you believe need improving and how?

So you would ask stupid questions.

Seems like the shnazzy new park would be a nice escape for the folks who live in the war torn areas of OKC

__________________
Dr. Spaceman: Now Jenna, medically speaking for your height your weight puts you what we call the "disgusting" range. Fortunately there are solutions. For example, crystal meth has been shown to be very effective. How important is tooth retention to you?

I live in Mesta Park, Oklahoma City.

Next?

__________________
Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

NO DEBATE from the Mayor. No transparency. It's a "NO" vote. Send them back to the drawing board.

South of Reno downtown?? Are you serious? Have you been outside of Downtown at all in the last 5 years?

Tell ya what Betts, Come by my house Friday night. Don't drive, take the bus. Get off at 39th and Penn. I'll meet you there, around 7pm. You can walk the route to the grocery store my grandmother used when she got mugged and mutilated in Sept. After that we can take a stroll down to Bobo's Chicken. We'll have to cut through Philips Park, but you've got your Conceal Carry, right?

If you think that South of Reno downtown is "about as low as it is conceivably possible for a city to be", you're in for a rude awakening my friend.

Read this thread: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...er-2009-a.html

I've been at 39th and Penn plenty of times. I used to live near there. I've lived worse places in Oklahoma City as well, and, places I lived in Denver would probably make your hair stand on end. If that's where you live, you really don't have an understanding of how one goes about trying to improve a city. But, clearly, I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

I've read Pete's thread, and even posted in it. I've lived in other cities with problems as well, and what I've found is that if you improve a city's core and you add mass transit, you make the city more attractive to people who ordinarily would move out to the suburbs. Those people start moving closer in, and they start fixing up older neighborhoods. Then, property values rise and you get even more people moving in. That spills over to the schools, the parks, the streets. In fact, my post in Pete's thread was about 23rd St. I used to live on 24th St. right behind the area on 23rd St. that's being renewed, so it's exciting to me to see what's being done to that area. As they improve 23rd, that will spill over to the neighborhoods north and south of it. That's what we need to do in this city.....not fail to improve our core so that everyone with the money to buy a house moves to Edmond.

She's in a bubble. Good luck with her Purple. I hear ya though.

I don't know what part of Denver made your "hair stand up" anymore than parts of this city. That's possibly going to cut 34 Police officers in less than two weeks.

Take a look..we can beat them in 4 out of 7 categories. Geez
Crime Rate Comparison: Denver Vs. Oklahoma City

I think I do have an understanding in how to improve a city.

You wanted a concrete example? ok, here's one. Let's reopen the public pools that the city has closed in the past few years due to lack of funding. The lack of funding part is kinda surprising, considering how successful the previous 2 MAPS were in creating all this increased Tax Revenue.

How does it make more sense to build brand new Aquatic Centers with MAPS3 when there's already existing Aquatic Centers being closed because the City can't afford to keep them open?

Please explain it to me, since I seem to have no idea how to improve a city.

Recessions don't just happen for no reason. There is a catalyst and, as we have seen, lots and lots of people get laid off work. However, there are far more people whose jobs and lives have not been affected by the recession who have pulled in their horns and stopped spending. Granted people always need to spend wisely and not spend their credit cards until they are maxed-out, but millions of people who are perfectly well-off with secure jobs have stopped spending.

When people stop spending, the system starts to collapse in on itself. When even the folks who have jobs stop spending, goods don't get purchased. When goods aren't purchased, goods aren't produced and more get laid off, etc, etc.

My point is that a huge part of this recession is due to the fact that the media scared the **** out of people with daily news that things were horrible and getting worse. When all the networks preach it, the right wing talk shows preach it, the left wing major media preaches it and everyone repeats what the media feeds them, it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. Yes, things were bad and we desperately needed to clean up our economic act. However, the media is responsible for making the recession significantly worse.

Your comment above seems to indicate that MAPS3 shouldn't be approved because we are in the midst of a recession. What good is it going to do an economy to NOT spend? First, the cost of MAPS to each of us is relatively tiny. Second, MAPS projects would create jobs during constructions and, if successful, would result in new private investment thus creating more jobs, etc, etc. To vote "no" simply because we are in a recession is the exact opposite of what we should do.

Remember the Great Depression and the WPA projects? OKC has a few of them that are left. WPA built Taft Stadium. WPA built the zoo amphitheater, WPA built the Municipal Building downtown. WPA also built the San Antonio Riverwalk and the Golden Gate Bridge. MAPS is, in a way, our own local WPA.

You can be opposed to MAPS for many things, but don't make the mistake of being against it simply because of the recession. MAPS will put people to work and help the recession on a local level. Remember that money spent locally rotates through the economy multiple times.

I'm not the idiot in a union trying to hijack the city for selfish reasons. Reasons that happen to be unrelated to what's actually being voted on.

try to disagree civilly... ok, folks?

-M

I haven't thought of this is these terms, but this is absolutely the case. They have hijacked the issue.

I go there all the time. Mostly at night to shop. It's much better than it was when I graduated high school 20 years ago. What would a sales tax proposition look like to improve that area? What infrastructure could be put in place that would generate more revenue for city services through increased commerce and tourism in the area? Of course, you will need a comprehensive plan that balances it with the same commitment of resources to all other districts or you will run into the same arguments as your own.

You make good points about the aquatics centers. I haven't done any research about it, but seems pretty logical. Of course, I'll never use them, so maybe I should be against such a proposal...

In the first four words of your post, you lost all credibility.

Actually the unions have discredited themselves with their typical union-like behavior. You guys have made this all have a very nasty vibe. Like I say, "typical unions".

That's all well and good, but it does leaves a key question unanswered ...
which idiot are you?

That's exactly what's happening and will continue to happen. Do you think revenues over the next 12 months are going to change on a dime? We will continue to have short revenues.

This city depends on those to function. In every department not just Police and Fire. EVERY DEPARTMENT. WE will have to add some sort of Permanent Tax for CITY SERVICES to survive. That has to happen like it or not. That tax is coming. Whether MAPS passes or not.

If you live in Oklahoma county get ready. The city met with county commissioners yesterday and promised if they supported MAPS they'd support the JAIL tax.

The Feds have given the Sheriff a deadline. The JAIL has to be fixed or rebuilt immediately. The Feds are months from taking the Jail over entirely. A TAX has to be passed. If it's not done, then the Feds will do it and "Stick" the citizens with the bill...THAT'S a TAX. That has to be done.

SO GET READY!. MAPS TAX, Then PERMANENT CITY TAX, Then JAIL TAX.

Unions? The Mayor won't even take questions in those meetings he boasts about. He just did a presentation and left. What a JOKE! That's not transparency. NO Debate! NO QUESTIONS! What a coward.

YOUR yes campaign and the Mayor stooped to new lows yesterday. They went from twisting and spinning to being LIARS. That's what I won't stand for and either should you. The say MAPS3 and Public Safety Issues aren't even related. I've heard that no less that 50 times on this site.

NO???? Then why are your commercials now saying, "MAPS will add Police and FIRE". THAT"S A LIE! That's where someone has to draw the line. I thought we were dumb to relate the issues. Now who's the FOOL?

That's never group I'll TRUST with my money. Twisting is disgusting enough. But flat out lying?

There are two proposals on the desk of the city Manager right now. One is to lose 34 officers. The other is to lose Fireman. That's something that's highly likely. I can't see how he can't implement both. So then where will we be? In another few months I'd imagine, we'll have to do the same thing unless something gives....LIKE ADDING ANOTHER PERMANENT TAX!

The above was for you. They are unrelated? THEN EXPLAIN THE COMMERCIAL???????????? Who's the Idiot?

So the use tax won't put more officers on the street?