Maybe I am sleep deprived or something but someone has lost me again...what the heck are you talking about? Humphreys? Understand he is co-treasurer of the MAPS 3 campaign and former Mayor but what is this post about? Thanks for any additional info in advance!

I have said multiple times that it shouldn't be us versus us. I'd far rather see both sides work together FOR MAPS, and then see popular support for our policemen and firemen take hold. But I'd also like to see people understand that careers in which we serve sometimes require more of us than other jobs, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't have a lot of time to do volunteer work so my job serves that purpose. Sometimes the satisfaction of a job well done and people helped is a greater thing than money or time

golfer i saw that too and it is ashame that people are so scared that they will lose that they trash their opposistions prperty to make theirs better. all that did was make them look worse and like scum.

The ctizens wont be mad at fire nd police when maps fails. just you guys on here will. There are great nmbers that are no on maps. maps 1 won some 30000 to some 20000 votes and same with mas 2 so it has never been a land slide. sorry folks but your wish of the community hating fire i really dont hink will happen. with a 90% approval ratng it would be hard to get people to really change their minds over how they feel as a service that they use.

Agree to a certain extent. MAPS barely passed with 54% (hardly the "mandate" the Mayor stated in a otherwise solid video that Betts posted). MAPS for Kids did better, with 61% passage of the voters.

I've finally finished the post which began this thread about the "Great Maps 3 Debate." The analysis part took some time to do. The full post is here: Doug Dawgz Blog: The Great MAPS 3 Debate

The part that's been added over the past 2-3 days is the analysis part, as well as a Document Appendix. The analysis part is shown graphically below. The Document Appendix is not shown, other than its introduction. I've done my best to be even-handed in the analysis, and, as you can see, my opinion is that both press conferences fared poorly in the credibility factor ... and the city used the "Fear Card" on occasion (actually, all such cards were thrown by the mayor) and the unions used "Cheap Shot" cards (all such cards were tossed out there by Gil Hensley). Altogether, the press conferences present a pretty ugly showing form both sides. The city deserves better than that from MAPS 3 proponents and opponents. At least, that's how I see it. Anyway, here is my analysis:













As I said, the Document Appendix is not shown here. It presently contains several documents which are related to the city's offer, particularly from the firefighter perspective.

While I don't see that MAPS 3 and the union staffing issues directly relate to each other, since that bone has been tossed into the pile, I thought it best that a more developed source of information exist than the plainly political comments we heard in the respective press conferences.

__________________
Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

Thanks Doug, for your always heroic efforts to educate us. I appreciate and respect your opinion.

Larry, McFerron is the Political Strategist for the Chamber's "Yes For MAPS!" campaign. He ran Humphries bid for School Board recently and lost significantly.

I hope the voters are not fooled by these scare tactics which have been employed by our "No" group people--they don't realize the opportunity that awaits this city if MAPS 3 passes. It will be much harder to pass a MAPS initative if this doesn't pass.

They knew before they went to City Hall the other day that they would not be able to speak--all of this is part of a big parade to confuse voters and this City will not profit as a result; jobs will be lost, opportunities will be lost and will be stagnant for another ten years.

These projects are impressive to businesses wanting to move or expand to a new vibrant community such as ours--those of you who are considering voting yes; please get to the polls--those of you leaning toward "No," you need to reconsider.

What do we have to gain by voting down MAPS 3?

Maps was not designed to fix roads, expand police & fire--we lost out on many opportunities for businesses to relocate to our city because of the things we don't have.

A convention center will bring "new money from outside OKC" to area, which will translate into more jobs, more convention business since we are centrally located between the east and west coasts.

Don't pass up this opportunity to improve Oklahoma City's economy, image and make this place more attractive.

It does not matter to me one way or the other how you, or anyone else for that matter votes on MAPS, yes or no. Although I've had a lot to say on this issue, never have I said anything believing I was going cause a yes voter to become a no voter. Why, because I know better. It's not happening.

Now you want to talk about scare tactics. Not only do you want to talk about them, you want to insinuate the no camp are the only side using those type of tactics. Has the No side been lilly white through all of this, no.

However I think it's safe to say the other side may need to wash off a little dirt themselves. Have you read Dougs analysis? If not please do. Look at which side played the scare tactic game, the same game you accuse the no side of the issue of having sole ownership of. Then see who played the cheap shot game. I'll make you a deal, you take responsibility for your half of the BS and I'll do the same for my half. What do you say?

Ohhhh lets see.......Just about 80 Million dollars a year. You see that money will be put directly into our city. When citizens are able to keep that money they'll spend it here and the city can keep it.

That money will stay here and help our city at a time that's very uncertain. At a time when this city is going to make CUTS. At a time when this city is BROKE!..

We couldn't have a MAPS to help get our roads back into shape? That's ridiculous!!! We can have MAPS for whatever we want! Capital Improvements right?

What businesses have you spoken too that have said if we don't pass THIS MAPS they won't move to OKC. What businesses are going to relocate to OKC because of a "Central Park"? I'm listening...What a joke!!!

Iron, do you honestly think each of us putting twelve dollars a month "into the city" is going to do anything for the economy? What are you going to do with your twelve dollars? One movie? One CD? Half a book? Three hamburgers? Twelve cokes? And who's that money going to go to? Harkins Theaters? United Artists? Barnes and Noble? McDonalds? Coca-Cola. Any of those sound like they're keeping all the money locally? The majority of your twelve dollars is most likely going to leave the city and go into the pockets of corporations located elsewhere.

Each of us would have to pledge to spend every one of those twelve dollars we save locally, to pool our money together and spend it on something that is actually designed to make the city better if we want to make a difference locally. Sound familiar?

And again, did you vote in December 2007, or is this your first foray into local politics? You might check and see what was on that bond issue.

Larry Nichols said that if the first MAPS hadn't passed, he would have moved Devon to Houston. Are you so close with the CEOs of all our local corporations that you know without question we're not at risk for the same thing happening with a different corporation if this one doesn't pass? Have you spoken to every CEO of every company thinking about moving their headquarters to make sure they'll be great with MAPS not passing? Have you done any reading about what corporations are looking for when they relocate? Of course we don't know for sure that passing MAPS is going to cause a business to relocate here. But I can guarantee you that if we don't pass MAPS nothing is going to be done here that will make any CEO look closer. We're far more likely to get new businesses by passing MAPS than by voting it down.

12 dollars? mmm. 100 million projected/551000 in pop in OKC. That's $181 dollars per citizen per year.... that's $724 for a family of four per year.. right thats $5068 over 7 years...Median household income in oklahoma is $44,000 a year...so is that almost 2% of their annual income that will be for a Central Park etc..per year... doesn't sound like much but you aren't struggling to make any payments now..lucky you..think though some are may VOTE NO.. I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure not going to think it's an insignificant amount for everyone!

If only one person is working in the home and the other parent is a stay at home parent that's over 3% a year...May not sound like much, but to many families at THIS time it is. That's why not THIS maps at This time.
No I haven't. That's what I'm asking for from your side of the argument. What companies CEO's are waiting for the results of MAPS3 to relocate to Oklahoma City. That's what your argument suggests. What companies are moving to Oklahoma City? Names? How many jobs are they bringing? When are they starting to build? That's what the mean when they say "pie in the sky". How can you guarantee me anything? Which CEO's have you spoken to that are moving here when we build a Central Park, Senior Aquatic Center, White water rapids or maybe it's the biking trails that are going to have them start pouring in...

Come on Betts...you don't believe that...Do you?

> ... 100 million projected/551000 in pop in OKC. That's $181 dollars per
> citizen per year.... that's $724 for a family of four

The above math premise is, not surprisingly, no better than most of the ramblings and misinformation put out by folks who are too busy fussing to think straight.

How anyone, with even a smidgen of education, could be so silly as to argue a sales tax will be borne only by a city's residents is rather sad.

Yes or No, have a happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Stuff yourselves to the gills because tomorrow will be another day for hammering away.

$181 divided by 12 = $15. Whoops, I was off by $3. That's an average as well, and does not take into consideration any money being put into our economy by visitors. There are people who pay more. There are many people who pay less. Again, what precisely will $15 a month do to improve our economy? How can you apply it directly to the Oklahoma City economy, without that $15 leaving to Atlanta, Chicago, New York, Portland when you buy your coke, your CD, your book, your cup of coffee, your cigarettes, your Nikes? The best way I can think of is MAPS. We know, at least, that the money we spend will directly benefit our city, and indirectly the citizens residing in our city, with more jobs and better quality of life.

I believe what I stated above. I believe there is a FAR better chance that a company will relocate to Oklahoma City if we pass MAPS than if we don't. Precisely why should the lack of mass transit, the lack of a downtown park, the lack of river improvements, the lack of sidewalks and trails, etc make Oklahoma City attractive to businesses looking to relocate?

Now, that's talkin' turkey! Happy Thanksgiving, all.

__________________
Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

Same to everyone else. I actually might finish work today in time to get some warm turkey. Fingers crossed!

You are 100% right Kevinpate... anyone have any figures on how much of our sales tax base comes from non-OKC residents?

Even math using the entire metro population would be better (less that 1/2 of iron's math)... and it would still be W R O N G!

Oh Personal attack!! Personal attack!! This is the part where most of the Yes votes on this site cry foul!...If I had typed that...
That's a lot like the math betts used for Police Officers. You now see what I was thinking when I read that and she has "high dollar" education. She's a Dr.
I guess it will do plenty! It will by other ridiculous math give us $100 million dollars a year. Keep things in perspective if possible. Betts are worried about paying their rent, car payment, getting food for their family. They aren't buying CD's etc..

Undrstand what you guys are saying and if someone knows the percentage of out of OKC residents would be helpful. Agree a more accurate calculation would be the metro area number. Can also see why he used OKC numbers oonly as they are the only ones allowed to vote. In the end see all sides on this one.

As expressed by others, hope everyone has a great Turkey Day. One thing to be thankful for is the opportunity to have these kinds of debate/discussion.

Using just the greater metro area population, though an obvious step toward a more complete answer, is still somewhat apples and oranges. Who can vote for the tax is very unrelated to who pays for the tax.

Even if you draw a 70, 90, 120 mile radius centered around the new Devon site, such a population base would still exclude 100% of every sales tax dollar paid by tourists and other non-metro residents fro outside the radius, whether in town for business or pleasure, or not even in town at all. After all, that method would still exclude every tax dollar from anyone who purchases items subject to sale tax from a local OKC source via phone, internet or mail and then has those items trucked, mailed or otherwise delivered to them.

If it was a personal attack to challenge the position as being abjectly silly for anyone with even a smidgen of education, then so be it. We have mods who can admonish me or take whatever action they deem appropriate.

I offer no retraction. It absolutely is a demonstrably silly proposition, and that is a charitable description.

Common sense facts: maps 3 projects 100 million/yr. & that penny has never made more than 92.5 million a year and that was in good times not like now, 9 straight months of tax decline - over 12% decline last month which in turn will make the current maps for thunder/nba come up well over 15 million short when it expires in March. All construction costs go up yearly which will make alot of the projects cost more than estimates once they are built. Ballot is vague and gets them freedom to do almost anything. Transit ride tickets generally are subsidized 50%, times are bad right now, this should be enough reasons to vote no. This is too big, too vague, and it is not a good time to continue this tax. People need a break, let's fix what we have before we move forward.

Well we might as well start planning for soup kitchens then. We would never want to plan for the times to improve anytime during the next 7 1/2 years.

Agree with Betts. To many people living in OKC will fight progress no matter what. If I were a CEO of a Fortune 500 company based on what OKC has to offer, I would have to say no thanks. OKC has made strides, however it still has more to make it a more "desirable" place. I hope OKC wins on this vote for the sake of it's future.

Understand what you are saying and I had some of the same concerns about the revenue projections. Those have been resolved and the City's numbers seem fairly solid. Even with using the recession Ford tax shortages as the starting point for the math. Please see my post starting the Retraction thread for details.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...-concerns.html

Using MAPS for Kids, the Mayor stated that they came within $2M of the revenue projections. Did the math on it and that is a 0.4% difference. That is less than a half a percent. I would be thrilled beyond description if they could get their cost estimates that close!

A significant concern lies with the cost side as they are only allowing 2.2% for cost over runs when the City acknowledges that projects average 8% over. And MAPS 1 was 47.75% over what voters were told.

Instead of budgeting $17M (2.2%), they should be allowing a minimum of $62M (8%) upwards to $371M (47.75%).