The Great MAPS 3 Debate - Page 3

Midtowner · #51 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 12:30 PM

That's a good question Kerry. The answer is probably this: Sales tax revenue is sort of a zero-sum game in that if one entity realizes money from it, another is left with nothing. Since the early 90's, we've had a tax in place to address some key infrastructure needs and have dramatically improved life in this city. In doing so, however, police and fire weren't given any significant increases.

I think police and fire see MAPS as a significant barrier in getting the public to vote on a permanent tax supporting public safety -- that we might draw the line at 8.375%, again killing any real hope they have at a significant tax hike in their favor anytime soon.

betts · #52 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 12:34 PM

And yet, if police and fire departments are going to get the use tax or some portion thereof, then they actually benefit from a MAPS tax. There's no guarantee that if MAPS fails, they'll get an increase in funding election or that it will pass.

iron76hd · #53 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

hat does police and fire staffing have to do with MAPS?

Midtowner's point is definitely one that was thought of. MAPS3 is a want by our city leaders. They had no plans on letting the citizens know exactly what this city NEEDS. We are just letting citizens know what important city NEEDS aren't being addressed and haven't been for several years. Once the NEEDS are addressed in reference to City Services and Public Safety then move forward on the "wants".
The Mayor and Counsel chose to ignore the NEEDS and put "want's" on the ballot instead.
There's no guarantee that if MAPS fails, they'll get an increase in funding election or that it will pass.
This is true. Citizens will at least know the true state of necessities and may chose to have "Big League" city services and Public Safety before...the park, convention center etc...
It's very simple. Priorities!!! Their priorities are totally reversed. If their priority is the Safety and Service to the citizens that live in this city they don't show it. They admit there is a problem with staffing and don't deny it, but put luxury items on a ballot for voters. Why?
http://markshannon.com/CORNETT.htm

Midtowner · #54 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betts

And yet, if police and fire departments are going to get the use tax or some portion thereof, then they actually benefit from a MAPS tax. There's no guarantee that if MAPS fails, they'll get an increase in funding election or that it will pass.

There are a lot of folks out there who will blame police/fire if this fails and those folks will be reluctant to support further tax increases to help those who they see as anti-progress or greedy.

Kerry · #55 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midtowner

That's a good question Kerry. The answer is probably this: Sales tax revenue is sort of a zero-sum game in that if one entity realizes money from it, another is left with nothing. Since the early 90's, we've had a tax in place to address some key infrastructure needs and have dramatically improved life in this city. In doing so, however, police and fire weren't given any significant increases.

You would have a point if retail sales were forever stagnant - but they aren't. The whole purpose of MAPS is to expand the population, business base, and encourage visitors, all of which expand retail sales. Even if the rate going to police and fire remains constant it translates into more real dollars at the end of the day. They might get the same percentage of the pie, but it is a bigger pie everyday.

Furthermore, another goal of MAPS is to increase downtown density. This has another positive effect in that it doesn't necessarily require an increase in city services to serve more people.

iron76hd · #56 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

There are a lot of folks out there who will blame police/fire if this fails and those folks will be reluctant to support further tax increases to help those who they see as anti-progress or greedy.

Not sure what your idea of A LOT might be. Those that we talk to have already cut through all of the "Pay Raise" misnomers the Mayor started initially. So I doubt they'll think it's about Greed. I don't know if you only watch Pro MAPS3 propaganda or what. But the Anti-progess bull has been addressed also.
It's funny. We are in one of the worst economic times since the 80's or the depression. I can't imagine any politician wanting to put a MAPS3 for a park or walking trails etc... on a ballot then...but it's happening today...

OSUFan · #57 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:17 PM

I think the problem most are having is there are no clear messages or goals stated form the union. First they want more staff and aren't really opposed to the actual MAPS ballot or projects. In their press conference then they state they are actually againt the MAPS projects and the ballot and it has nothing to do with working out a deal wit the city.

I've tried to follow this closely and I'm still not sure of the unions goals, message or end game.

Midtowner · #58 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:18 PM

Actually, building capital improvements in a down economy is smart planning. First, it's cheap. Both contractors and subs will work for lower margins than they would because they're just delighted to find any work at all.

Second, with all of this underway, we'll be much better positioned as a metro to be a good place for expansion when the economy turns back up.

If police and fire were smart, they'd understand that all of this progress and increased density which MAPS III will achieve works in their best interests.

And yeah, wages do factor in. While fire made the offer to give back their increases to pay for some of their personnel shortages, for the city, that ignores the long-term costs of adding those personnel (a lot more money).

I do agree that emergency services need more cash. The city has offered a stopgap solution. I'm not sure if I'd take that if I was in your position either because that stopgap would be used to argue against future ballot measures containing permanent solutions.

I also think the stopgap idea is maybe bad for the city because spending will grow accordingly in emergency services and they simply won't be able to remove those funds once the stopgap measure expires. Effectively, making the deal with the devil in your case would pretty much lock your unions into being coopted on MAPS no matter what because the accompanying use tax would be an expected and necessary part of your budget.

iron76hd · #59 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

f police and fire were smart, they'd understand that all of this progress and increased density which MAPS III will achieve works in their best interests.

That couldn't be further from the truth. You unfortunately don't know what your talking about. That's what we were told last year and the year before that and the year before that....
Our best interest is to have enough officers and firemen to answer the growing calls for service. CITIZENS interests are what's at stake. They should know and deserve that if the call ...They'll come...right now they don't get that and it will surely get worse.. How is that BETTER?

Quote:

we'll be much better positioned as a metro to be a good place for expansion when the economy turns back up.

that's funny i'm pretty sure the economy isn't going to turn around overnight. therefore their projections are a little more than "off". You seem to have a good grasp on EVERYTHING. From Methodology to the Economy. The Attorney I knew well was exceptionally smart, but never made those claims. When is the economy going to turn around exactly? What date. I'd like to be by the computer and watch my investments SOAR!!!!!!!! LOl

flintysooner · #60 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iron76hd

MAPS3 is a want by our city leaders.

That's where I think the police and firefighters are really wrong. They view MAPS as something only dreamed up by the leadership. There is much more support for MAPS than just leadership.

In fact that is one of the best things about MAPS really is that all of us get to participate in something that none of us, or very few at best, could do privately.

Midtowner · #61 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iron76hd

The Attorney I knew well was exceptionally smart, but never made those claims.

Obviously, I'm smarter.

Midtowner · #62 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iron76hd

How is that BETTER?

More population, more people moving here from Edmond and Moore, more retail = more tax revenue = more municipal services.

A concept so easy, even a lawyer can grasp it.

OKCGUY3 · #63 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 01:48 PM

The thought of building capital improvements in a down economy being cheap is true. However, time is the variable. The way that Oklahoma City has done things in the past, prove that this idea is fallable. For example, lets pass a bond to build 3 new fire stations. Hooray we have money for new stations. 9years later, the stations have not been started yet. The money originally set up for each station is now approx 1/2 of the current building cost. So, further delays on new fire stations because now they cost too much. If the contractors were to bid the job immediately and be held to those bids, then the idea would stand the test. Remember the ball park, council had to repeatedly vote to add money due to over runs on construction. Why didn't they just hold the contractors to the original bids?
Unless you believe everything you read gives the whole story, and that our Government at any level is clean and transparent, then most likely you don't have the full story on this issue. ( Including myself ). Funny how we all like to take sides when there is an arguement, but we won't admit that we don't know the whole story. ( both sides )

andy157 · #64 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Loudenback

This is just a note to say that Andy157 and I had a really really fine meeting this morning at the IHOP in Bricktown -- we were joined part of the time by a mystery guest -- and Andy157 gave me a good bit of education (not sure that it's all sunken in yet) about the history that relates to issues that developed after the 1989 3/4 cent sales tax was approved by the citizens ... he gave me a good education about many things, too many for me to enumerate here ... I wasn't taking notes ... some of which has to do with the city's budgeting methods, some of which relates to litigation in District Court which related at least in part to whether the city was appropriately allocating the 3/4 cent tax ... the case is here: OCIS Case Summary for CJ-1992-3864- THE CITY OKLAHOMA CITY VS STONE CHARLES L ET AL (Oklahoma County District Courts) ... which resulted in a negotiated agreed Journal Entry of Judgment filed on January 12, 1993. The actual document isn't on-line at OSCN (the agreed judgment was filed in 1993, well before such documents came to be available on-line). OSCN's docket sheet entry merely reads ...

... and, of course, that note tells nothing of the content of the agreed judgment which is a matter of record. Andy157 kindly gave me a copy of the lengthy document (55 pages including attachments, if I counted correctly) and I've not had time to read it yet. Some of the related history relates to blatant misdirecting of funds by the city both before and even after that agreed judgment was entered into.

It is not my place to identify who Andy157 is -- that is a matter for him to decide -- but I will certainly say that he is quite a gentleman and that he certainly has been in a position to give excellent 1st hand historical information which has, step by step, led to where things are today from the firefighters point of view, and, to some extent, the FOP's even though he did not assume to speak for its point of view. Andy157's lineage is the red-truck type, the guys who never give you tickets when your car is parked in front of your house and the car tag is 2 months out of date (I mention that because I got 2 such tickets on back-to-back days last week). I didn't think to mention this to him (but do now if he is reading) but his group is the type that saved my wife's life several years back when she slumped on the stairs and could not breathe but whose emergency service arrived well before AMCare's people did -- because of their quick and skilled action my wife is not only alive but is supporting me today! I'm a bum. I love those guys! I have no doubt whatever about the truthfulness of his remarks or that what he had to say was fact-based. I left the meeting with no doubt that the city did not always live up to either the spirit or the letter of the 1989 3/4 cent sales tax ballot and may not being so today. (I like the cops, too, even if the out-of-date tickets on my parked car were a bit annoying. For many years, I officed with a fine man-in-blue who got his law degree while serving as a policeman, one of the finest guys that I know).

It is/was one of the most informative 1 1/2 hours that I have spent in quite a long time, and I thank him for initiating our get-together and for spending the time with me. He wasn't trying to persuade; neither was I. For me, it was just an education in history, a detailed part of it that few would probably know first hand. And I got to eat a short stack of yummy pancakes ... I haven't had any for quite a time, and the coffee was good, too.

As a sidebar note, he arrived before I did ... he made a grand entrance driving a huge red firetruck ... I'm just kidding. Some nearby firefighters were coincidentally at IHOP at the same time and their rig was parked in the median in the street immediately west of IHOP.

I'm still not getting the connection between MAPS 3 and the existing staffing and/or other issues between the unions and the city ... in my view, both the city (re MAPS 3) and the unions (particularly the firefighters re the 1989 sales tax and matters which transpired after that time) have clearly legitimate issues to advance, and that has been my position pretty much if not altogether from the beginning. I still do not see that each "side's" issues are necessarily in conflict with the other's. Maybe if we talked longer, I'd see the connection, who can say.

Regardless, there are people of good will on both sides of every one of the issues involved and it's a sad day for Oklahoma City that cool and calm heads and personalities cannot find it possible to have a seat at Oklahoma City's table and figure out reasonable and long term solutions, all the way around. I'm talking about the mayor and city manager. I'm talking about the union leaders. I'm talking about the citizens who are tracking this election and the union issues. I'm talking about the chamber and business interests. No one is 100% in the right and no one is 100% in the wrong. But, with the blazing dueling pistols, if not oozies, maybe later even some shoulder-held small nuclear devices, which are being fired and/or anticipated as we speak, that seems more unlikely to occur as each day goes by.

Doug, thanks for your comments. I also enjoyed our meeting, and I look forward to having an opportunity to do it again. It is difficult to convey 20 years worth of conveluted history into a hour and a half, or two, and even more difficult to soak it all up.

Before our meeting I only knew you as a faceless name on a internet chat forum. However, I have always considered you to be a person of integrity, open-minded, fair, and willing to listen to both sides. After our meeting my thoughts as well as my personal opinion of you have not changed, they were simply confirmed.

If you recall I mentioned the length of time it takes for me to convey my thoughts to writing. There are a couple of reasons, and my lack of typing skills tops the list. By the way is there a trick on how a slow typer can avoid being logged out?

I will close for now by saying these two things. This is an unfortunate situation for all of the parties involved. I wish things were different, but they're not.

Secondly, I am glad that the men and women of the OCFD were able to help your wife. If what they did helped play a role in her survival and gave her the opportunity to continue doing what she does, that makes me proud. No matter how this ends up, good or bad. What they did for her and others like her will continue. And though many things will change, their service to the public, and their dedication to their profession, will not.

iron76hd · #65 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Obviously, I'm smarter.

I doubt it. Your definitely very smart and are the "jack of all trades". Just ask yourself.

Quote:

More population, more people moving here from Edmond and Moore, more retail = more tax revenue = more municipal services.

That's a joke right? Can you explain why it hasn't happened then? I welcome your expertise in the management of our City. I don't think there has been more people moving to OKC from Moore or Edmond.

http://markshannon.com/CORNETT.htm

iron76hd · #66 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

This is an unfortunate situation for all of the parties involved. I wish things were different, but they're not.

I concur. It is what it is.

Midtowner · #67 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iron76hd

I don't think there has been more people moving to OKC from Moore or Edmond.

Well, let me rephrase... we don't care so much about people moving here as spending money here. You can't deny that improvements such as the Ford Center, Bricktown, etc., capture tax revenue which would otherwise likely be spent in the suburbs.

I've explained before -- competition for sales tax revenues is tough and cities are doing what they can to compete with one another. Suburbs have sunk their cities all over the nation because they kept tax revenue at home. OKC has to do what it can to get that tax revenue back.

onthestrip · #68 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 04:16 PM

God I hope this thing passes. Not only to spite the fire and police unions who are campaigning against it, but to actually help them in the long run by bringing more tax revenue. Its a win-win!

betts · #69 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 04:40 PM

There are some great places to live in the city. What will hopefully happen is that people discover that there is value and charm in the city. Neighborhoods like Edgemere, the Plaza District, Linwood, Mesta Park, the Paseo, Jefferson Park, Putnam Heights, etc. have homes with architectural details you cannot get at almost any price in the suburbs. In addition, you have to drive less to spend time downtown, to go to work downtown or at the Health Sciences Center and there's more to do once you get there than ever before. So, I'm hoping that people buying starter homes or moving up from starter homes look in the city first. Having a streetcar will help tremendously with that, especially if the route expands a little, as people will be able to travel around town without bothering with a car. Downtown is, of course, another great housing option, but there are many more, at a tremendous range of prices and sizes. That's the trend being seen in many cities.....that people are tired of their commutes, tired of cookie cutter homes and are looking to move closer in to the city. But, to encourage that trend, you've got to have a great downtown and/or surrounds, and that's what MAPS is all about.

onthestrip · #70 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 05:20 PM

Just got an emaill that Not This Maps is now following me on twitter. As of now they are following 160 people and rapidly climbing, have 3 followers and have tweeted nothing so far.

Of course you cant blame them for using it but the funny thing is I have a feeling that about 80% of OKC twitterers are in favor of maps3.

Wambo36 · #71 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midtowner

More population, more people moving here from Edmond and Moore, more retail = more tax revenue = more municipal services.

A concept so easy, even a lawyer can grasp it.

The facts are not in your favor. More retail = more tax revenue = less muicipal services. Those are the facts.

mugofbeer · #72 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wambo36

The facts are not in your favor. More retail = more tax revenue = less muicipal services. Those are the facts.

More tax revenue = LESS municipal services? Thats not a fact, its burying your head in the sand. Explain how your logic came up with that conclusion?

progressiveboy · #73 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onthestrip

God I hope this thing passes. Not only to spite the fire and police unions who are campaigning against it, but to actually help them in the long run by bringing more tax revenue. Its a win-win!

The only way is to vote and tell all your friends to vote especially the ones that are for Maps 3 (lol).

Wambo36 · #74 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugofbeer

More tax revenue = LESS municipal services? Thats not a fact, its burying your head in the sand. Explain how your logic came up with that conclusion?

The fact is that there are less police officers, firefighter and public works employees than ever. This while the city has been taking in more taxes than ever. I didn't say it was logical, just a fact. You see if the more retail = more tax revenue = more municipal services model had been followed, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

mugofbeer · #75 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wambo36

The fact is that there are less police officers, firefighter and public works employees than ever. This while the city has been taking in more taxes than ever. I didn't say it was logical, just a fact. You see if the more retail = more tax revenue = more municipal services model had been followed, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Thats not a mathmatical problem, thats a decision made over the years by municipal administrations. Thats a gripe to take up with the city council and the mayor, not sabotage the city's future by voting down a proven method of improving our city because your pet project wasn't included. I think most everyone has agreed with your ultimate and overall point, its the method and the logic behind the actions you support that is wrong. You're arguements are like the guy who wants to commit suicide by jumping in front of a car. You kill yourself and selfishly ruin someone else's life in the process.

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