Funny. You stated it as a matter of fact. You see the difference between you and I is I like to speak about facts. So a homeless person in Downtown OKC could have told you the information? Wow! This is what you said...
Well, we'll soon know from someone who lives it. Not was "told" it. If it turns out it's true. I'll give you credit. If it turns out you're wrong....
You see the statement on it's own sounds hard to believe. I've never heard of this place in Houston that's lawless and in "free for all" mode. So i'm curious.

Point taken. This decision to not support MAPS3 was not made lightly. I'm sure there are a few people that will blame the "Unions" if it doesn't pass. I definitely believe they will not support Police or Fire in the future as sort of a Tit for Tat response. Maybe, I have too much faith in people to believe that a large number will all of the sudden HATE the Police or Fire for standing on a different side of an issue.

I'll tell you, that this city's safety is at risk. Right Now! The Manpower shortage is about to be more evident than anyone wants. Maybe then their will be the citizen outcry everyone is looking for. From talking to hundreds of citizens over the last few days, I've learned that many are voting NO for some other reason besides Public Safety. The Public Safety issue is just something else to add their failure to support MAPS3. Keep in mind. If blaming Police and Fire is your answer along with retaliation by not supporting anything for them on any issue. Then fine, but you're in the minority.
It would be easy to say I'll be on a crusade to stop all future MAPS projects if this one passes, but that's ridiculous. I take it one election and issue at a time. I'd suggest you do the same, to ensure your "responsible" with you vote.
I'll agree these issues about the lack of Manpower to provide adequate Police and Fire Service should have been made public years ago. Instead of trying to handle each issue behind closed doors and shielding the public from the truth. We should come out publicly years ago.

When have you ever heard us complain? Please cite some cases of us complaining other than the current situation. If not for the current goings on you and everyone else would still be blissfully ignorant of what's been going on for the last 10 to 15 years. We tried to work with the people who could fix the problems, only to be told they didn't see a problem. If you can't read some of Andy157's posts and realize why this has come to a head then nothing I can say will help.

I assume you still live in MWC. If so you might want to stop in at one of your local firehouses and find out how they feel about their situation before you use them as an example of how good things can be. I grew up in MWC too, and still have friends who work for the MWCFD. They do have the only ISO rating 1 in the state. They got this because of the hard work and training put in by the men and women at the stations.
Do you know how the city repaid them? Approx. 4-5 years ago, when the 29th St. construction was starting to kick at full speed, the city manager came to the police and fire employees and told them that if they would forego raises for 4 years they would use that money for infrastructure to speed the 29th St. project up. After this time they would catch the police and fire employees up in pay to where they should be. 4 years later when they came to the city and asked to be caught up they were denied. You see the city manager had died and his assistant (who was well aware of the agreement) had taken his place. His response was "I didn't make that agreement with you". Now they have reached an agreement with their city, but only after a prolonged fight.
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do. We are very aware of the risks associated with our stance.

Flushed your credibility down the tubes. Your WRONG! I'm not surprised.

Houston PD officer says. That 5th ward was very crime ridden 25 to 30 years ago and did have one of the higher crime rates. Today, it's not even in the top 5 of crime ridden beats. The Southwest side of the city has the higher crime rates and has for several years. Their high crime rates are due to what he called "new arrivals". Illegal immigrants.
There is no part of the city "they won't touch".
So unless you know what goes on behind the doors, don't assume you know more about what's happening than we do.
That's some sound advice for you. Consider taking it.

I was told that by a Mongtomery County Sheriff in Conroe. Everyone in Houston had said that the fifth ward in Houston is dangerous, and that Houston cops try to avoid that area.

So I bumped into the Sheriff at Kroger and asked him, out of curiousity, if that is true. He said he doesn't think any officer wants to find themselves in the fifth ward, but they have to.

So, it wasn't some homeless guy in OKC.

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Hey now, there is no need to attack me. I never assumed anything, much less know more about what is happening. If I am told this by someone in uniform, I can't assume the guy is an idiot. I am not a Houston native, so I have to take their word.

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LarryOKC,
Concerning councilman Marrs comment about the two-thirds of the general fund going to public safety. I would like to clarify that the amount he is talking about includes all of the public safety services (police, fire, EMSA, 911 call center).

With that being said, he is very careful NOT to talk about how the City has not increased the number of authorized positions within the police department since 1989. Councilman Marrs is also very careful NOT to mention that the City has made the decision to decrease the number of officers assigned to patrol duties during this same time. These decisions have been made while the City has increased by over 100,000 people and over 55,000 commercial/residential structures have been added.

Finally, the City also does not like to talk about how this has caused the response time to priority one calls to increase to almost ten minutes seventy percent of the time. The earliest response time information available from the City is from 1996 and that shows that ALL priority one calls were responded to in an average of just over seven minutes.

Visit the following link for more facts:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.c...S%20info-1.pdf

You can also check out a Powerpoint presented by chief Citty to the city council in February of 2009 at the following link:
http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.c...powerpoint.pdf

I believe I have posted this information on another thread but I thought it was worth pointing out here.

And again, you guys are attacking a project with a temporary funding source instead of campaigning for a permanent funding source. What part of this do you guys not get?

You guys need to understand that I strongly agree that staffing needs to be increased in both departments, but opposing MAPS 3 because of these issues is not the best road to take. What if MAPS 3 was for police and fire? What if $777 million was used to fund new positions? What happens when the seven year tax expires? How THEN would OKCPD and OKCFD fund new positions?

And if this problem as been happening for 20 years, why wait until MAPS 3 to blow the horn?

If you campaigned for permanent funding increases, then money for new positions would never be in jeopardy.

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Here I'll let you read it again.
Take the advice and let's move on.

Pulse, why should they campaign for a new permanent funding source when one is already in place? The city should abide by the vote of the people and use the money as it was voted to be used. I don't know all of the ins and outs here, but what I am reading and being told is that the funding is being misapplied as it concerns the public safety aspect. The firefighters and police officers on this board are trying to tell us what has been happening the last couple of years or more with their negotiations with the city manager and council.

Why don't you understand that we have been asking for a permanent funding source. That's why the leaders went before the council. We don't decide what goes to the voters. We would have loved to see a permanent funding tax go on the same ballot with MAP3. That's what we wanted.
Good question! That's our own fault, but when every year your promised next year. You have hope. Then after so long you have to call bull when you've heard it so long. So our only recourse is to go Public. None of us are politicians and quite frankly despise having to go over the city counsel to the public.
That's easy to say, but when every other avenue has been exhausted. Then letting the public know is the only other option. What's your suggestion? We are all ears...We would have gladly tried something else...

Wouldn't a public campaign for increasing fire & police safety after MAPS not have worked?

In 2010, after the passage of MAPS 3, I would have sent a message to the media after one final "no" from city leaders for a request to increase funding to hire additional staff.

My message would have been "With the anticipated increase in activity generated as a result of MAPS 3, we are facing a greater burden in police and fire protection as the city has not increased staffing for police and fire since 1989."

That will then put pressure on the city from both pro and anti-MAPS parties, and then everyone is on the same page, perhaps even the city government.

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okcpulse,
For the last two years the representatives from the police union have been meeting with city council members and telling them that we needed a funding source for additional staff. (They knew about it prior to then, this was just official meetings.) This issue is no surprise to them.

When the MAPS 3 campaign was revealed the police union representatives once again went to the city council and asked for a solution. The City said NO. The police and fire were given no other solution.

It is only within the last week that the City has mentioned that the use tax COULD be used to resolve the staffing needs of both departments. They will NOT give any specifics about how much of the use tax would be given to fire and police. They will not put ANYTHING in writing concerning hard numbers in relation to their offer. The offer only says they will CONSIDER giving SOME monies from the use tax. Ask yourself why the City would not make the offer they made to the fire and police public?

It is for this reason that the offer was refused....... Specifics are required. With each MAPS tax the fire and police have been told to wait their turn. The City has encouraged police and fire to be silent for the good of the City. The City did not want the citizens to hear how bad the situation is. Fire and police are finished being silent about the issue and waiting.

Exactly! Citizens shouldn't have to wait for 2-4 hours for a Police Officer to quell a disturbance with a neighbor or investigate a suspicious car parked down the street etc... Address the NEEDS... then Address the wants. Park, Convention Center, etc...

Lets get some transparency here.
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Facts...

http://www.okcissues.com/okcissues.c...S%20info-1.pdf

I've stated my case. Police and fire should publicly campaign for a permanent funding source. I am 100% behind you guys getting the help you need, but I don't appreciate being attacked and being told I should take advice. It's as much of a learning process for me as it is for anyone.

Public safety officials have been going to the city about this for years. I get that now. But I would have gone public long ago. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. The public knows about the city's safety concerns, and now city officials must deal with it. The cat's out of the bag.

But in a city like Oklahoma City, who has to work twice as hard as other cities to compete, you have to address your needs AND your wants, which in OKC's case are needs. Top notch public safety, education, recreation and transportation are the magic four elements to ensure a thriving city.

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Amen. Preach it! It's the order, in which you address each one. The order you just listed is almost perfect except I'd move recreation to last. In my opinion, A 70 acre park, walking trails, sidewalks, an fair improvements are Recreation and so far from the OKC citizens I've spoken to they agree.
You won't get arguments there either. We're finding out that failing to make this an issue for all of the public to hear was a big mistake. To be honest, It's very embarrassing and unprofessional to tell a citizen that they had to wait 4 hours to have their accident worked because the city officials REFUSE to address Manpower shortages. Lesson learned though.

Very well stated.

I will be glad to see Dec. the 9th get here. If it passes. I hope the parties will get the bleeding stopped, address the P.S. issues, and let the wounds heal. If it fails. I hope the parties will get the bleeding stopped, go back to drawing board, hammer out a workable plan for P.S. and MAPS, get it back out, work together and make it happen, and let the wounds heal.

Good luck with that. From the tenor of this forum, I don't think there will be any healing wounds for a while. Until the policemen and firemen are happy (although I'm assuming MAPS failing would thrill you all), their wounds aren't healing. And, if it fails and union lobbying is the cause, I don't know if I'm speaking for anyone other than myself when I say it will be very difficult to forget that if there's any other voting to be done. I have always been in favor of both sides getting what they need, but since I think the unions are going about it in a wrong and destructive manner, I don't know how that cannot affect my attitude.

Betts, I've been at this for over 20 years now and can tell you that the FF's have rarely held the city accountable and this is one of those rare occasions. They are always willing to work with the city. It just has to work both ways. As far as what you do in the future, that's something only you control. I have a hard time believing that MAPS 3 proponents for the city would just pick up their toys and go home. If they truly believe in what they are doing they will rework it and try again.

look i do like maps 3 and think the some of the items would be great.... at the RIGHT time. the big thing is its just not the right time right now to worry about wants. thats what its all about its not right to get wants right now.

if you are feeling the crunch at home and just have enough money to get your bills paid but are falling behind and realize that basic home improvements are a must but arent getting done, but you went to the bank to get a loan to blow the money in vegas where sure you might consider it an investment because you might get some fo the moeny back but the odd s are you wont get all of it back. would that sound reasonable? no of course not so why we giving the city a blank check to do what THEY want and THEIR terms. none of which are what the city NEEDS at this time to keep the city running.

Rework in what way? What precisely needs to be reworked, and how will that make a difference? Either MAPS as a concept is a good one or it isn't. Casually assuring people that we can always do this again in a few years sounds like rationalization as a salve to conscience. If it's a bad thing it remains bad and if it's a good thing it's as good today as it will be in 2 years.

MAPS supporters are precisely the people who are the most likely to be supportive of labor wishes because they both are concepts that probably have higher support among Democrats. MAPS probably has a broader base of support, as there are Republicans who can see the value of paying as you go instead of indebtedness, but regardless, I'm not sure it's a good idea to antagonize your fan base.

Wambo - I did grow up in MWC, but live in OKC now. I know a number of MWC PD and FD officers. The city has made up for anything they did at that time with plenty "gifts" for the department in the last couple of years. Remember that in the years that they weren't given raises, schools were laying off teachers because of huge budget problems in the state. I see no reason why civic employees should be any different from other groups and be protected in tough times. And 29th has done a crapload of good for the budget of MWC...which in turn makes more available for the departments in sales tax dollars. They might have lost a little at one time, but it's a give and take...and they got plenty out of it. You don't see MWC folks in anything but the best of equipment, now do you?

As for OKC, personally, I am going to remember how these two groups are acting when my voting comes around. I'm going to approve Maps 3 no matter what these groups say. And next time a vote comes around to approve something for these groups, they're going to have to do a better and more factual and precise job of convincing me that they need this. A lot of the arguments I've seen on the part of these groups are wants, not needs. They say they need this item or that, but really they're just to beef up an already more than adequate system. You want to see someone with problems, go find a volunteer group with a 50 year old truck. Don't piss and moan about a 10 or 15 year old one to me. You want man power, I'll give you that one...but find me a police or fire department somewhere in the country that doesn't always want more manpower.

bombermwc.

No worries. Just give them a "Blank Check"...and don't worry about it. You're an easy voter and an easy taxpayer to fleece.
I grew up in a small town with old trucks. Which one has trucks that are 50 years old? How many times does a volunteer fire department get called out? Vs how many times does a fireman in this city answer a call? You have no idea of the cost it takes to maintain old equipment for a fire department of this size that has an older truck.

Did you know that the maintenance records for a car that was 7 years old was up over 125K. That's after the warranty expired of course. Just by trying to keep that car. That was a time when most cars in the fleet were 7 to 10 years old. Did you know we have plenty of cars that are 7-10 years old right now? Do the math. we could have bought 4 more brand new cars for that. Nice Logic. You see you know nothing about why having a 10 or 15 year old Fire Truck is unsafe, a problem or at least NOT very cost effective.