Aquatics implies body movement. I like to watch.

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Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

I can't think of a way to say it nicer, but Iron, you are simply dense. You do not understand -- or fail to consider -- the connection between improving our city and improving our tax base, and how that affects all of our opportunities for jobs, how that impacts the value of our homes, and how living somewhere that has new opportunity makes you a happier person.

You probably could not explain why Austin is doing so well in the economy.

You have a zero-sum-game viewpoint of how economic development occurs.

I'm no supply-side theorist, but I get how our city must continue to improve or our opportunities will be limited in the future. That your income is reliant on municipal tax collection, I would think you would, too.

You really just don't get it.

This is a scorched-earth approach to getting what you want and it benefits no one; ironically, it won't benefit you or your goals in the long run either.

What accountability? This is no different.

All we were told was the broad outline of projects, not the details. Then we voted. A MAPS oversight board oversaw the projects. That's it.

This one is no different.

This is a dumb reason to not support it.

Yupp, as a matter of fact, Larry Nichols himself said that Devon's HQ would have been in Houston had it not been for MAPS because without MAPS and the quality of life it created, they wouldn't have been able to attract the type of skilled workers to Oklahoma City that Devon can today.

Nor would we be seeing a 50-story skyscraper go up. Nor would we see an NBA team here. And I can go on.

To those that oppose MAPS, understand that the supporters of MAPS care as much about public safety. But when you are building a city, you can't just focus on public safety, or just focus on infrastructure, or just focus on education, or just focus on entertainment and recreational amenities. You need to focus on all of those components.

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Continue the Renaissance!!!
www.okcpulse.net

I think there are people who just don't get it. Maybe they've never been to Chicago, Boston, Portland or Denver. Maybe they've never ridden in any sort of transit besides a car. Maybe they haven't seen a city where the populace naturally heads downtown when they've got free time. Maybe they don't know or care what anyone else thinks about Oklahoma City. If you don't know any better, you cannot have vision, you cannot see what Oklahoma City could become because you have no frame of reference. I find it amazing to see what a penny has done, but I also can see how far we have to go because I've been in all these cities and lived in some. What is sad is how little any individual will have in their pocket if MAPS doesn't pass. It's rather like selling your birthright for a mess of pottage.

This is not true in all cases. However, for the most part the Council only acts when the Manager and his staff, and the legal dept. recomend how and when they should act. How do you think we got a no definition, no accountability ballot in the first place? Could they stop the vote, and tear up the ballots that have been printed, and start over? Unless Midtowner or someone else with a legal background says different, yes, with few exceptions, they can do anything they want.

I am in agreement and like many am torn. I readily admit I am in the NO camp, but want to be in the YES camp...but just can't get past the "blank check" that this Ballot & Ordinance gives them. I like most, if not all of the projects, but as stated numerous times, there is nothing legally binding that says we will get ANY of the "proposed" items. Realistically, the Big 3 (Park, Convention Center and Streetcars) will happen. The others, not so sure.

Guess I could pull a "house divided" and have both signs displayed

With all due respect they are VERY different. Doug has supplied the links before and maybe he can do so again. Compare the original MAPS ballot and the Current one. If available, compare the original Ordinance and the Current one. Remember, what is contained in the Ordinance is what you are actually voting on, the Ballot language is usually a summation of the Ordianance (in some cases Ballot language is worded so you are actually voting the opposite of what you think you are). When you compare them, there is a HUGE differences.

Even the original Ballot had an amazing amount of detail (not an exact quote, but the gist):

Ballpark: No less than AAA standards
Arena: Built to meet the standards of the NBA and NHL

This time around, not only are we not getting that level of detail, but NONE of the projects are even mentioned. Zero. Nada. Ziltch.

The oversight committee is included but not defined either in the Ballot or Ordinance. If memory serves the original MAPS oversight board had some authority to it (definitely remember numerous articles discussing the dissension on the Board). What does the MAPS 3 Ordinance say this time around?

ORDINANCE NO. 23,942.

...PROVIDING FOR A CITIZENS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS SALES TAX ADVISORY BOARD...

§ 52-23.4. (g) For the purpose of advising the City Council regarding projects proposed for funding from the excise tax levied by this section, the City Council shall by resolution establish a Citizens Capital Improvements Sales Tax Advisory Board. The Board's function shall be to review any such proposed project and submit recommendations to the City Council regarding the project.

One helpful article in the Oklahoman:
NewsOK

Just read through the last 3 pages of postings and I see my dislike for the unions is well founded. Pay them off first or they will campaign against you. Seems like a recurring theme for them.

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Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

In all fairness, I don't think the oversight committee is worth very much. It seems like a good place for certain big law firms and business people to pretend they have something to do with MAPS and progress, but in the final analysis, I don't think the committee has much value.

FWIW, all of the committee members I've spoken to about their participation in MAPS have talked about how proud they are of "our" accomplishments. I think that speaks volumes about the sort of oversight or lack thereof which exists.

What a joke.

Thank You.

Sounds an awful lot like the business lobby to me. Workers standing together making their needs and wants voiced is evil, but big business sends out armies of lobbyists and buys off every level of government and that's somehow different? I could say the same about the business lobby, "Pay them off first or they will campaign against you. Seems like a recurring theme for them." Maybe it fits everyone involved in politics? It's not just unions, Kerry.

Maybe he does. Or maybe he's already in one of those careers. WHO ARE YOU to look down on those jobs?? Why are they so much less important that your beloved police and firefighters???

There's a huge difference between saying that momentum and progress will stop or slow, and saying we will be "set back 10 years." Don't put words in our mouths.

You missed the point. This JOB Growth is a joke also. Unless you're in one of a few fields that's the only jobs that will be added. They act like Major corporations are going to spring up everywhere. I'm crazy. I'm still waiting for all of the "right to work" companies to start piling in like Keating PROMISED.
Stopped, slowed, or "set back 10 years" is all a bunch of bull. Scare tactics to push people to vote YES or "this city will crumble". What a joke! I know rational, logical people don't believe that. "the sky is falling" mentality...

Rational, logical people know that Oklahoma City is nowhere near where other cities we'd like to emulate are. Rational people know that we've got to play catch-up if we hope to get close. Our downtown retail is virtually nonexistant, we have no mass transit to speak of, we've got a dearth of natural beauty and need to create some. We don't have many housing options for people wanting to live downtown. Although we're starting to make some top ten lists, I haven't noticed any of them being for "liveability", "cities in which to retire (chosen for leisure time options and ease of access)", etc. We're ignored by many major retailers because our population is so scattered that they can't figure out where to put stores. We've got a convention center half the size of Tulsa, smaller than Omaha, and about the same size as Wichita.

People posting here in favor of MAPS want to make this a better city in which to live. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, I have trouble understanding why anyone wouldn't want to make this a better city in which to live. Poking fun at people who want progress makes no sense to me.

Hmmmm, I actually agree with you and have stated the same thing somewhere in these threads. As you can see below, it is the good folks at the Chamber that are implying that (IMO). Do you have me confused with someone else? I did a quick scan thru the thread and found my post you partially quoted, I don't see anywhere in it that I "put words" in anyone's mouth (in that post or any of the my other ones in this thread). Maybe you think I did that in another post somewhere? If so, please provide.

In any case, as Doug pointed out/provided, Mr. Thompson said:


From the MAPS 3 website (Why Vote Yes tab) taken Oct 25, 2009

Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8!

The 1st part of that is fine. Undoubtedly a new round of projects could serve as a catalyst for more development. It is the last sentence that goes too far. It implies that all of the construction and the new business etc that is STILL happening because of the original MAPS (1993) will come to a halt. (IMO)

Larry didn't say that, he was merely quoting our community's august chamber president/Opubco president David Thompson who said it ... don't know which hat he was wearing at the time ...

I can rip that part of his remarks made at the Chamber's October 21 luncheon if anyone really needs/wants to hear him say it. That way, you can even make it the "ring" sound when your cell phone rings. I think that it was the wiser-than-his-name-would-suggest, Bugs Bunny, he being a leader that we would do well to have in our presence today, that used to say, "What a maroon."

Need a link? Urban Dictionary: maroon

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Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

MAPS was a slam dunk until the Public Safety groups became vocal. Even those who were not for it simply would not vote so a low voter turnout would guarantee a win.

That is no longer the case. Advocates for MAPS now have to not only get out the vote but also change some minds. Forums for urbanites are like preaching to the choir.

If this is going to win, advocates need to get out to the neighborhoods and suberbs to make their case. Part of that case should be an incentive that says if MAPS 3 passes, MAPS 4 will be for the neighborhoods and suberbs.

Everyone understands the case for downtown projects but a goal to be able to walk anywhere in OKC on a safe sidewalk before the year 2020 may also enhance our city's ability to be "major league".

Just some thoughts from somebody who has lived in several "major league" cities and truly wants to see us join that group.

They would probably pile up if Oklahoma City was viewed as an attractive place that would attract the best talent that every company seeks.

Remember losing the the United Airlines facility and how that loss contributed to the original MAPS???

Oh, what the heck. Here's the clip ... click David Thompson's graphic from the 10/21 Chamber luncheon, below, or click here for the clip of David Thompson's remark at the 10/21/2009 Chamber luncheon.



Save the mp3 file and make it your ring-tone. Or not.

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Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

So are we to assume that you have seen the proposals for MAPS 4? Or are you advocating saying whatever it takes to get peoples votes.

Indeed I do, Platemaker. In Norick's retrospective of his first term, that loss, as well as some lesser losses, reportedly caused him to pause and wonder, "Why is this happening? Why are we coming up 2nd best?"

He is reported to have concluded that it turned on quality of life issues. And then the new mild-mannered superman Mayor Norick was born, the one that we remember, and in his 2nd term that resulted in the original MAPS initiative.

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Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

How are the fire fighters and police harmed if MAPS III passes?

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Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

No, you missed the point. OBVIOUSLY, you don't care about anyone but yourself and your union boys. You can't see that benefitting one part of the city or one group of citizens helps everyone.


Gee, sounds a lot like the rhetoric your people are pushing regarding the state of public safety.


It's right there in that quote. You said "some posters think". The only person who insenuated everything would stop--or be reversed--on Dec. 9 was David Thompson.

Sidewalks, bike/walk trails, senior centers all contribute to the outer parts of the city. State Fair Park is not downtown and the Oklahoma River improvements benefit the south side of the river as much as the north. This idea that this is only helping downtown is completely false.