Originally Posted by flintysooner

I've wondered myself if we simply cannot keep ourselves as a society from continually repeating the past.

Originally Posted by Doug Loudenback

A couple of things ... I've not yet updated my blog's postings in these regards but will do so shortly.

The Oklahoman's Coverage. Surprisingly (and pleasantly so) the past couple of days have seen what I think to be solid journalism at the Oklahoman vis a vis reporter John Estus. A big improvement, and I'll give credit where credit is due. I'm still watching to see if his stuff was a aberrational blip ... or if he gets fired or throttled ... or if the Oklahoman has elected to let its reporters actually report.

The closely-held process which led to the MAPS 3 proposal. Sure, there were times that public input was available, but not after spring 2009, contrary to my understanding of what the mayor said would occur. Either (a) I'm mistaken and he didn't commit to spring-summer citizen input, or (b) he changed his mind and didn't tell us.

The 2 recent press conferences. Today, I've spent a good bit of time comparing, side by side, the mayor's 11/12 press conference with the NotThisMaps press conference on 11/13, and I'll be making a new blot post about that shortly. I've not yet completed my thinking about either or both together, but my preliminary observations are:

Neither side is being particularly respectful of the other, and that's not a good thing. Isn't anyone willing to take the high road?

In my opinion, the worst culprit of the lot in this regard, city or anti-coalition press conferences, was Phil Sipe, president of the Firefighters union. In his comments yesterday, while he obviously had a sympathetic audience in the building that the Firefighters union occupies (where the press conference was held), he was full of cheap shots and misleading remarks in some of what he had to say. For example,

1. He argued against "giving a blank check to a bunch of politicians." Like ... being a politician is a blemish on one's character ... like he's not being a politician, himself, right now ... like the mayor and city government, per the earlier Gazette/News9 poll, are not held in high esteem by the public, which the poll showed they were, remarkably so. Flash back to pre-1993-MAPS, and Sipe could easily have been voicing the identical rhetoric that he did yesterday. He looks good in his cowboy hat and he is good at speaking to and rallying those who agree with him already, but his presentation is clearly emotionally, and not intellectually based ... at least that's how he comes across to me.
   
2. Like his remark about the purity of the unions ... they are not in it for themselves but because of their devotion to Oklahoma City. Right. While I don't doubt that they like their city, I do doubt that they became firefighters and/or policemen for the reason that they saw it as their life-roles to devote themselves in some feigned love affair with OKC to the city that they loved. Like most of the rest of us, they needed jobs and that (police/fire) was the job that gave them personal satisfaction. Kids dream of being cops or fire fighters, and that's all good. But it's wrong for Sipe to try and characterize police/firefighter motivation as being up on some sort of a grand pedestal, superior to the place of mere "politicians."
   
3. Like his remark, about the offer presented by the city to the firefighters, that the union rejected the "30 pieces of silver," making like the city was Pontias Pilate and that the union was not about to be Judas.
   
4. Like his remark that the city should be more focused on fixing pot-holes, as though the city's earlier bond election isn't presently involved in substantially repaving and improving our city's streets.

I'll have more to say shortly, and the city does not have unblemished hands, to be sure (like the mayor's much earlier mis-characterization of the union position as being not being about anything other than wages). One could expand the pro-MAPS 3 list of outrageous comments by going back to the 1st Chamber "Breaking Through" luncheon when, at the end, David Thompson offered his view that if MAPS 3 did not pass that the city would be set back 10 years. Sure thing, David -- the last 10 years progress suddenly vanishes on 12/8/2009 if MAPS 3 doesn't pass and we are transported back in time to 1999. The last 10 years of the city's development gets a fast flush and it never happened. What an idiotic thing for him to say.

There's plenty of hyperbole, and lack of respect for the others' viewpoint and position all the way around. Enemies are being made in this public process.

And that's sad.

One of the products of original MAPS, and then MAPS for Kids, what the convergence of citizen pride, trust in government, business willingness to invest, which occurred following the fruition of original MAPS & MAPS for Kids being profoundly realized. Today, with publicly thrown cheap shots all around, one wonders if that worthwhile alliance between government, business, and citizens that has led to so much good for the city might be in harms way.

Enough for now. I'm not done thinking, but I'm troubled for my city about how this deal is publicly progressing.

Originally Posted by andy157

Doug, it is sad, I agree. If your not done thinking, if your still collecting your thoughts. If you would, please consider incorporating these facts into your thought process.

The Firefighters, who are Citizens of OKC, are prideful Citizens. I have been one for 55 years. Frankly speaking, I wish every one of them were Citizens, a lot of them are not, but a lot of us are.

Trust in Government is very hard to maintain when time after time your trust has been betrayed. I would like nothing more than being able to provide you with examples over a cup of coffee. You could decide for yourself if they are valid.

No doubt, business has shown a willingness to invest. However, I would be remiss if I do not remind you that the Firefighters, not the Union, invested not only their time but also their money as well in MAPS 1 and MAPS2. While Union President, I was invited to the table by then Mayor Humphrey’s and served as a member of the steering committees of MAPS 2 and the 2000 G.O. Bond election. The Mayor and I had our issues and rarely looked at things the same. It may have pained him greatly to make the invitation, nevertheless he made it.

Now as you can see, there was a time where the Union was a stakeholder and part of the alliance you spoke of between the Citizens, Government, and the Business community. Unless something different happens. Here is the rest of this sad story.

Our current Mayor has not shown a willingness to reach out, as did Mayor Humphrey’s did, and to be truthful I would be shocked if he did. That is unfortunate. If you consider President Sipe stepped into this situation less than three weeks ago, I would hope that one press conference does not make a man, because Phil Sipe is a man of integrity.

If he is given a legitimate invitation to sit at the table, by people with honest intentions, he will bring an honest willingness to address the issues and find a workable solution to the problems. If what I have been told is true, or unless his views have changed, if you ask Mr. Bennett I believe he would confirm the same

Consider if you will.

Originally Posted by Doug Loudenback

Arrogance is not a good quality in anyone, the mayor or me. Or anyone. And it does appear that Mayor Cornett has and exercises that capacity on occasion. I'm glad that Mayor Humphreys was apparently at least some different in the way that you described.

About what I initially said, it has already been pointed out that I mis-matched names and faces ... as I watched the press conference video, I though that the short guy wearing the cowboy hat was Phil Sipe and that the tall guy was Gil Hensley. Everything in my original quote should be modified to attribute the comments I mentioned to Gil Hensley and not Phil Sipe. My error. The guy that made the cheap shots was the guy below:



The guy who was more classy was the guy below, Phil Sipe:



There was also Brian Walters, below, but I've not quoted him yet (but will later):



About the flyer, it's a piece of trash. Like JBrown said, the rail yard has absolutely nothing to do with MAPS 3 ... ODOT did, not the city. As for Union Station itself, my understanding is that it is envisioned as a community center and anchor for the park ... although that has to be done in keeping with federal requirements ... as I understand it, it has to continue a transportation function of some sort, hence COTPA is there but it doesn't use all that much space in the facility. About Central Park, that's a lie, according to a "trusted source" who doesn't want to be quoted here. My understanding is that Devon never once requested central park - it requested improvements to Myriad Gardens, which are being done via property taxes Devon is to pay on its new tower.

About the coffee, glad to meet, anytime. I think I gave you my phone number in a PM ... if I didn't let me know and I will.

Originally Posted by soonerguru

My entire extended family has fought to support unions through the last 30-plus years of union-busting activity that began in earnest under Reagan.

However, at this point, I say screw the police and fire unions. My wife and I were talking today that we will tell everyone we know about this selfish, onanistic effort to screw over the citizens of this city because they aren't getting everything they want in the teeth of the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression.

Where I work, we've had to have our wages cut. The police and fire have not. And yet they whine about taking a 2 percent cut, when most people are dealing with 15 to 20 percent cuts -- and worse, unemployment.

Andy, your campaign punishes the citizens of OKC, not the "elites," as you claim. Ultimately, if successful, your campaign will lead to fewer business opportunities and lower sales tax collections for OKC, which will no doubt harm your ultimate efforts.

It is selfish, pointless, vindictive, ignorant, and potentially very destructive.

If a real bond issue comes to pass for police and fire wages to be increased, do not expect my vote.

Originally Posted by Doug Loudenback

...One could expand the pro-MAPS 3 list of outrageous comments by going back to the 1st Chamber "Breaking Through" luncheon when, at the end, David Thompson offered his view that if MAPS 3 did not pass that the city would be set back 10 years. Sure thing, David -- the last 10 years progress suddenly vanishes on 12/8/2009 if MAPS 3 doesn't pass and we are transported back in time to 1999. The last 10 years of the city's development gets a fast flush and it never happened. What an idiotic thing for him to say....

Originally Posted by Golfer

...Yes voters research the penny tax history and you will find that in it's best year in good economic times it only brought in 92 million, so they are claiming it will bring in 100 million a year so they are already not be straight shooters. ...

Originally Posted by Golfer

...Has one pro maps statement every discussed the order in which they will start with these projects,no. The first project will be the project that was desired by the wealthiest contributor to the pro maps campaign. Bennett, Nichols, Norick, Humphreys, Thompson, etc.; place your bet on which one of these elite wealthy will get their project started first.

Originally Posted by Golfer

Also the convention center estimated cost only includes a part of the convention center, not the full price and where is the rest of the coming from to finish this, please enlighten me. ...

Originally Posted by jbrown84

All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again.

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

I said the same thing, that some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop... (didn't know Mr. Thompson had made that statement) and we would return to at least the pre-MAPS state. Still want to know WHY they think that will happen? We STILL have "forward momentum" going on 16 years after the 1st MAPS vote passed. Devon has credited MAPS as the reason they are still here. The Devon Tower can be directly attributed to MAPS and the entire 180 street-scaping project and the extensive improvements to the Myriad Gardens, etc., as a result from that. That in turn will lead to more development EVEN IF MAPS 3 NEVER EXISTED. The only way that forward momentum is going to slow down or stop is if the projects being built now are failures. Don't think anyone would argue that the projects "proposed" won't be a catalyst for future development, but I agree they crossed the line with the other suggestion.

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop... (didn't know Mr. Thompson had made that statement) and we would return to at least the pre-MAPS state. Still want to know WHY they think that will happen?

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

We STILL have "forward momentum" going on 16 years after the 1st MAPS vote passed. Devon has credited MAPS as the reason they are still here.

Originally Posted by betts

I don't think forward momentum is going to completely stop...

Originally Posted by flintysooner

...Maybe people are correct and this vote on MAPS 3 makes no difference at all regarding momentum but it is hard for me to believe.

Stuff that is happening now was planned years before. If we want things to happen in a few years then we have to be working on it now.

...

I just know I am unwilling to take the chance on stopping what we have going. Plus I'm too old to keep starting over all the time.

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

By the way, why doesn't anybody take issue with Doug when he is saying the same thing?

Originally Posted by Tier2City

If the $10 per month for MAPS (based on $12,000 of purchases per year) were correct, where does the rest of the $73.75 that the Average Oklahoma City Resident is paying in sales tax per month ultimately go?

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

... didn't know Mr. Thompson had made that statement ...

Originally Posted by Larry OKC

I haven't found individual numbers, just the yearly averages for the various MAPS:

MAPS (MAPS and the 6 month extension)
5.5 years
$363M
$66M/year average
(the 6 month extension was projected to bring in $30M )

There was an approximate 2 1/2 year gap between MAPS & MAPS for Kids

MAPS 2 (MAPS for Kids)
7 years
$520M
$74.29M/year
(11% increase here is probably attributable to MAPS, but have to take out what the normal increase would be due to inflation etc)


Ford Center Improvements (or as I like to call it, MAPS 1.75)
15 months
$100M/year (est)
(this is a 25% jump over MAPS 2 collections?? Actual revenue to date is multi-millions below projections, don't have an exact figue but may be the similar 11% increase noted above or $82.46M/year)


MAPS 3
7.75 years
$777M
$100M/year (est)
(this is 46% higher than the yearly average for MAPS, and as noted above, 25% higher than the recently ended MAPS 2??. IF my Ford tax calculation is valid, means that MAPS 3 will bring in significantly less than they are projecting, $639M or $138M short. Which projects are going to get scaled back or cut completely? Don't have any idea where they got their projections from, so don't know.)

How much of the sales tax revenue increases are attributable to the various MAPS and how much is due to population growth (some can be attributed to MAPS) and just normal increases that would have happened anyway? Unfortunately, don't have the answers for that but here is some info:

"Since the official Census in 2000, Oklahoma City had grown over eight percent according to the Census Bureau, making it the 12th-fastest growing large city (over 500,000 in population) in the United States."




As mentioned previously, the Park/Boulevard are scheduled to be completed 1st (by 2014, 2 years after the relocated I-40 opens). The Convention Center is scheduled to be "staged" last (for some unknown reason, given it's "economic engine" status and the fact we are currently losing convention business). The Mayor has put that date as at least 10 years from now. Historically, the last of the MAPS projects are finished 10 to 12 years after the vote. Where everything else ends up in the mix, is uncertain.



It is true that the amount given previously reported is the Phase 1 (of 2) that was mentioned in a tiny Q&A blurd with the Mayor in the Oklahoman. A couple of articles mentioned the Convention Center as being in the $250 to $400 million range. Only after reading the Chamber's C.C. study did I find out more details on the Phase 1 and Phase 2. Other than that I haven't seen any mention on any of the MAPS 3 websites that points out that the C.C is just the Phase 1 portion. My guess is Phase 2 will be in MAPS 4.