One chapter in Okc's attempt to pull itself out of the doldrums is kinda forgotten. After 3 failed tax/bond votes during Mayor Coats' term, Ron Norick became mayor.

Although we principally remember him for his MAPS leadership in 1993, that visionary mode didn't show its face until his 2nd term. In his 1st term, he was learning, on-the-job-training if you will, about municipal politics and he was not the same mayor for which we fondly remember him during his 2nd term.

In his 1st term his 1st attempt at tax leadership would fail. After he was elected, a 1989 sales tax proposal narrowly failed on January 10. That proposal was not at all like the visionary MAPS proposal which occurred 4 years later but was more focused on nuts and bolts kind of stuff ... sewer lines, etc.

But, that's not the story I'm wanting to present here.

The story is that, following that negative vote, a stand-alone referendum petition, chaired by citizen Debbie Blackburn, independently circulated by citizens and not initiated by city hall, proposed a sales tax for police and firefighter needs on a different ballot.



The referendum called for a permanent 0.075 cent (3/4 of a penny) sales tax, as described above.

The city council was obligated to put the matter to a vote, and it did ...



The issue was voted upon on June 20, and it passed handily:



What's my point?

Firemen and police have a different avenue to pursue, if they want, as opposed to being seen as, and being, obstructionists to a different set of issues than involve police and firemen.

Instead of positioning themselves in the MAPS 3 process, it would easily have been possible for them to commence a referendum petition to gain exactly what they want the city to adopt, whatever that is. That method of advancing police and firemen goals could even be initiated as we speak, right now, and such a petition could easily be circulated and potentially put to a vote on its own merits and without regard to MAPS 3.

A referendum for an additional 0.025 (1/4 cent) sales tax to fund police and fire manpower needs could already have been and could still be commenced completely independent of MAPS 3.

I'm inclined to see police and firefighter opposition to MAPS 3 as obstructionist since history clearly tells us that there is a route for them to potentially gain their objectives, independent of MAPS 3.

__________________
Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

The vault of Doug is awesome!

So there already exists a 3/4 penny permanent 'public safety' sales tax? I might have misread the article.

Maybe police and fire can go on strike, that would be interesting.

Doug,
Your idea is solid. But if MAPS 3 were to pass and then a petition were circulated as you propose that would actually cause a tax increase. I don't know that the citizens would be willing to go for that in this current economic situation. One of the "selling" points of MAPS 3 is that it is not a "tax increase".

Blangtang,
One of the bargaining rights that police and fire give up is the right to strike. In Oklahoma it is actually against state law.

Doug if you will look at paragraph 5 where it refers to the 200 additional firefighters. Thats what the Citizens demanded in both their petition and their vote. The City has rerfused to adhere to that demand. Do you not see that as wrong? Is it right for the City to collect the tax and then disregard paying for what they are collecting the tax for?

That's not going to change if MAPS doesn't pass. Either way, any extra money for policemen and firemen is going to be a tax increase.

Andy157,
Those two hundred fireman and police were hired and put in place. That staffing increase was to make up for years of not adding additional staffing to either department. (sound familiar)

It is worth noting that the fire department is not talking about a large staff increase. The leadership of the fire union has spoken about a decrease of approximately fifty firefighters. That "small" change in staffing is what has forced cancellation of vacation days and closing of fire stations. It is the police department that has talked about a staffing shortage of over two hundred.

Blangtang,
Sorry I forgot to mention in the prior post. Yes, the 3/4 penny tax is permanent.

The problem is that as the sales tax base has grown over the years as the population has grown the City has decided to put those funds additional sales tax revenues toward other projects. They could have just as easily added a few additional slots to the fire and police departments over the years. But they did not. Now we find ourselves in the same situation that existed in 1989.

It is for this reason that you hear the Union representatives respond with suspicion when the Mayor and other city representatives speak of "growing the pie" and then addressing the needs of police and fire. The "pie" has been growing for many years and the needs of the emergency services (all city services for that matter) have not been addressed.

Betts,
Agreed..... The question is how much of an increase and for what cause? Will it be a full penny for MAPS 3 and then an additional tax on top of that or will the sales tax decrease by a penny (if MAPS 3 fails) and then some portion of a sales tax replace it to resolve the fire/police issue?

Sorry that sentence is complicated but I think you get the idea.

The money is not being used for fire and/or police projects or not for fire and police staffing?

Well surely the money is being spent on City business of some sort?

Are you advocating some kind of anarchy or wholesale overthrow of the current administration?

Yes, and equally important: If additional funding is needed for staffing additional city of city employees, in this case police and fire fighters, one wouldn't really want to be funding what would presumably be a permanent need with a temporary tax. Permanency is needed, even if it slightly increases the sales tax permanently (so to speak ... no tax is literally permanent), even if it's only 1/4 cent. Now, to be sure, I just pulled 1/4 cent out of the air since it rounds out the existing 3/4 cent to a easy number (1 cent) to work with, hypothetically. It could easily be less than that ... maybe 1/8 cent?

One more thing: I don't know how the 3/4 cent permanent tax has been used, but I'm rather certain that if the specific purpose of a tax measure is for "X", the money cannot be used for "Y." I'm pretty sure that Supreme Court decisions say exactly that.

__________________
Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

But if I am understanding the anti-MAPS posters the issue is not so much about the exact amount of money but the allocation. And there seems to be a general mistrust of this City government and I suppose preceding administrations to spend the money appropriately.

It has never really made sense to me how opposing MAPS advances the agenda of the "against" people in securing more funds by some future vote of the public. So maybe it really is about changing the allocation of existing revenue by changing administrations.

Still looks short sighted to me and fraught with risk for both sids.

I don't really see how opposing MAPS changes the administration AT ALL. That's my point: if the fire and police unions don't like the current administration, then spend your efforts changing the administration. Again, I fail to see how MAPS not passing is going to help policemen and firemen at all. It simply increases animosity between them and our current mayor and city council, which seems like it will do nothing to further their agenda. Failure of MAPS to pass will not force the current mayor or city councilmen out of office. It increases animosity between them and the public that supports MAPS. The anti-tax people are going to be anti-tax for firemen and policemen as well, so if MAPS doesn't pass, it's not going to get them on the pro-tax for firemen side. How does it help?

[quote][/QUOTE

Thank you Andy..

I like Doug's proposal. Sure, an additional 1/4 cent sales tax would be viewed as a tax increase, but citizens generally support our police and fire services and I bet the majority wouldn't oppose a 1/4 cent increase to fund more firefighters and police officers on the street especially if the needs are pointed out in the campaign. What I think could happen with them opposing MAPS 3 though is a backlash of opposition against them and them getting nothing out of the deal.

We don't think it will change THIS administration.

At this point, I don't think we're worried anymore about that then they were when they ignored anyone from their own leaders of each city service or the "UNIONS" as you call them.

The Mayor's a gonner. Do you think he'll even run next term? NO WAY. He's just making sure the things HE VALUES FINANCIALLY are in place before he leaves.


I'm not sure we can do anything about that. If those that care, read up on any of the information out there. Studies, talk to FOP reps, go to local fire stations or police stations etc.. Try to make an informed decision on MAPS3 and still vote for this maps. That's there choice. I don't hold any animosity for them. It's their vote. If they read everything out there on BOTH sides and still want bike trails, parks, buildings at the fair grounds vs adequate police and fire protection that's their choice.

If they are just going to vote blindly and dismiss through their own arrogance reading up on the issues, then I might have animosity towards them. That's not because of their choice, but because they are putting fellow Americans, fellow citizens, in harms way. Whether it's not enough Police to look after the citizens and one another doing police work or enough Fireman to adequately do their job and safely and efficiently fight fires in this city. Not enough folks means that they will continue to operate at unsafe staffing levels. Which leads to citizens waiting to long for Police and Fire when called...they are in danger...Which also leads to injuries on the job and sometimes even death of good men and women trying to do this city a good job.

If there animosity is because we have a different stance, then shame on them...or shame on you. Let's no lose sight of one thing. Everyone has their own opinion and VOTE. I may think one persons is very illogical, but I'd never start to dislike that person because their choice differs from mine. That's immatue.. That's alot of things.

Simple. Again. The City Services won't be S T R E T C H E D any FURTHER. That's it. They will MANAGE until an administration is put in place that will address the MANPOWER issues and put Public Safety before GROWTH.

I don't think it has to be an either or issue. Again I don't see why we can't work on MAPS3 at the same time we work on needs among city services. In reality city services are supported by our sales tax base. So putting in an economic stimulus plan (MAPS 3) will only help that. If it weren't for MAPS 1 I think we'd be in a lot worse shape now. All of those new businesses downtown and keeping those big events at state fair park are only helping the situation. In this economy if it weren't for those economic stimuli we'd probably be having a larger crisis and laying off more city workers.

But right now I'm not opposed to a permanent tax increase to address those needs. I don't see why we can't do both MAPS 3 and increase funding for services. If the administration is the problem, maybe the police and fire depts should focus on getting that changed instead of on defeating MAPS 3. Again I don't think opposing MAPS 3 is going to get your goals accomplished. Instead I'd launch a public campaign for a petition to get a tax increase for city services.

OK let me make a point someone else already made. Why would the police or fire department want a temporary sales tax endeavor to support jobs? Once the temporary tax is gone, the job is gone as well. MAPS is temporary...not permanent.

The same goes on bonds...that's why they are used for STUFF not PEOPLE.

If the PD or FD want help, they need to work on their own to convince the people that they need an increase in taxes specifically for their needs. Tax guidelines also prohibit use of those dollars on other projects because the people voted on what to use it for. Unless we voted previously to allow the city to decide how to use the money, then it's going to PD and FD one way or another. Now that's not to say they aren't putting that tax money to the departments and then taking away normal budget dollars. But that's a whole complete other discussion.

At least get the facts before you start going crazy on MAPS.

I agree with Patrick's comments above completely. I am not at all opposed to a quarter center permanent sales tax increase to be directed towards our policement and firemen at this point in time. If MAPS fails, I'll have to think about it. I'm quite sure I heard the mayor is running for another term, as well, so again, you'd be better off expending resources to oppose him, and not destroying the good will that currently exists for your departments in the minds of people who live in this city. I suspect if MAPS is defeated, and police and firemen have a tax on the ballot, the fact that your unions opposed MAPS will be a part of the public discussion. A lot of people in this city are very proud of what MAPS has accomplished, are interested in going forward, and will be cranky if it is defeated. Put them together with the anti-tax for anything people and you may lose your opportunity.

I agree. There are better avenues to address these problems other than opposing MAPS 3 to get your voices heard. If you want a change in administration, find you a candidate that supports what you want, run him for office and support him well, and educate the public on the problems out there and how he's going to fix them. Run a strong well advertised campaign exposing the problems and what you're going to do to fix them, and you might have a shot. Opposing MAPS 3 is not going to get your needs met. Just because MAPS 3 fails doesn't mean you're going to get more money for city services. Quite the contrary actually.

I don't believe that they want a tax increase, just use the money that is obligated to go to public safety for public safety, i.e. the 3/4 sales tax. By calling it the public safety tax the city council can apply that money to roads, drainage, etc and call it "public safety". The police and fire want the money spent on manpower issues and not pet projects for the city council members.

Mayor is running for re-election.

But if maps 3 passes it will take years to collect the money and then to actually build it. I'm sure the police and fire uion can reach a new deal before any additional police or fireman are needed due to maps 3. You make it seems that maps 3 will put you guys at critical mass regarding personal, but the way i see it, it will be 10 years or so before maps 3 is even finish. Why can't you guys reach a deal in the mean time?

Seems obvious to me that they don't want a deal.

For what it's worth, here is the ballot in the 1989 election which established a "permanent" 3/4 cent sales tax ...



If it developed that sales tax funds dedicated to the specific purposes identified above have been expended for other purposes (which would be contrary to Supreme Court decisions ... and none in this thread have yet presented evidence that the same occurred), then a civil action would obviously lie.

But, ewoodard, when you said,

... if you mean to say that the 3/4 cent tax has not been used for the ballot-stated purposes, and you equate that with a more general definition of "public safety" so that city council could rightly use the 3/4 cent tax monies for the broader purposes you named under the label "public safety," the words "public safety" were not in the 1989 ballot and so your comment does not seem to fit the facts.

Did I miss something? Where did you come up with the broader term "public safety" in the comment that you made?

__________________
Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

We've heard all of the promises before. They can promise more taxes from improvements coming from MAPS3. WE"VE HEARD IT BEFORE!!!! We heard that the first time. They LIED I guess. They DIDN't DO IT!!!!!

I'll believe it when i see it, but GOOD LUCK... He's gonna need it! Nothing would make me happier than to help VOTE him out of office instead of him leaving on his own. Ok..Ok...Now that's not entirely true...A Playoff system instead of the BCS would make me a little happier....

We thought the same thing, but for the 10th time they didn't do that. If anyone wants to know why they'd have to ask them. The administration is the problem. In 2-5 years, we'll work on doing just that. That's along time. We'd like for them to address the issues they see in front of them NOW.

I would like to see proof this is the case. Looking at the ballot, it certainly seems clear what the money should be used for. If it is not, then why has legal action not been taken?