I understand to a certain extent what Patrick is trying to say but I tend to look at all this differently now that I'm a bit older.

I think many worry way too much about how Okies are perceived... And in fact the cowboy boots and hats are a big part of what gives the state it's unique flavor. After all, we do have tons of working farms and ranches -- it's a big part of our culture.

I always think of Texas and how they really embrace and promote these aspects whereas many Oklahomans see them as symbols of being backwards.

But these things can coexist with progressiveness and forward-thinking. I think the best way to do this is to concentrate on making OKC more sophisticated with real alternatives to the rural and suburban lifestyles. We need true urban neighborhoods to attract and retain the highly educated and creative types.

Then, when people do come to visit and observe some of the more bucolic aspects, there are plenty of other alternatives to show them so they realize there is another side to the state.

Yeah, right. You actually expect us to believe that you have been hanging out with business executives, pharmaceutical research scientists and executives, physicians, small business owners, national retailers, etc., ALL of whom have asked you ignorant questions about your teepee? Wow, way to shoot your credibility all to h%&^.

Why is that? Familiarity? They are as much on the same level as any of those in other cities. In fact you could almost say both surpass what Seattle has become. There is a reason why corporations have been moving headquarters and to both of them the past 20 years. Houston is the fourth largest city in the country and is a world center of the energy industry. As much as there are things I dislike about Houston that is indisputable.

The only two "Oklahoma" things I have ever been asked about when traveling abroad are the OKC bombing and Sooner football. Not once has anyone anywhere asked me anything like what Patrick describes.

I think I'm beginning to see where most of you are coming from, and I appreciate your attempts in "getting me to come around." Must of what you have said I actually agree with for the most part, but at the same time I think we should never stop trying to strive to be a more progressive, yet cosmopolitan city. I do actually enjoy living in Oklahoma, as I've lived here all of my 30 years, and plan to practice medicine here as an attending when I finish residency. I enjoy being an MD here, and enjoy the diverse culture of patients I treat at OU Medical Center/VA Medical Center, facilities that really attract a cross section of culture within this nation. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

What upsets and disturbs me though, is the stereotype that people have of us outside this region, and how the business world uses that against us when deciding to locate businesses here. In regards to the "teepee reference" I think most educated people know we don't live in teepees, but people still use that stereotypical reference as a jab against us, citing how uneducated and backwards they think we are. Same can be said about the "trailor park reference." I think Pete really hit the nail on the head though, and Pete, I appreciate your input. Really, the ignorance lies with those that fail to embrace the culture and instead buy into the stereotypes without understanding the true heart and skills of the people within this culture.

I do agree that we shouldn't completely dismiss our culture, our cowboy and especially our Native American culture. That's who we are, and it's woven into the fabric of our culture. We could promote it differently, as people referenced to Texas using their cowboy culture as a marketing tool for tourism. For example, San Antonio really promotes their Spanish/Hispanic culture as a selling tool for tourism. Like some have said, the items tourists really go after are our cultural items like Native American jewelry, cowboy boots, and cowboy boot cut jeans, merchandise that really characterizes our culture and is unique to this region. I know Sheplers, Teners, etc. really do a lot of tourism business. And, the horse shows that our renowned state fair grounds draw are a huge asset to our economy and culture. One of our biggest draws is probably the Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum, and it's definitely a first class attraction, that IMO plays on our strengths as a culture, and shouldn't be looked down upon.

I know that our western culture doesn't necessarily equate uneducated, low life. There are many owners of ranches and farmland across the state that are pretty wealthy. Just take Bob Funk for example.

In summary, I think we should embrace our culture, while at the same time, continue to move forward as a progressive, 21st century city.

In reference to our airport, I am proud of the overall quality of our terminal facility. But, I do think we could do better at improving and beautifying the access points surrounding it. Same could be said about our parks, but that's a whole other topic.

The public perception of Oklahoma among the general public, I think is changing, but many in the business world still use the stereotypes against us.

The comments that have been made at some of the medical and business conventions I've attended across the country are more stereotypical in nature, and not necessarily as direct as asking me about my teepee. There is some sarcasm of course in some of those references when they come up. And, being a physician, I have attended a lot of conferences around the country, and many of the stereotypes exist, although as I mentioned in another post, some are completely out of ignorance.

I too am a physician, now 73 years old and retired. I have traveled to Spain, Mexico, France, Germany and have a grandchild living in Norway. I have never ever run into the stereotypes you mention, and have always been proud of the Okie heritage. I have found lots of curiosity about our history and culture, but never disdain. Of course we want to move into the 21st century, but nobody does that by denying one's own heritage, but by embracing it and building on it. I won't pretend to like everything about Oklahoma or its politics and I would be the first to insist that we have a long way to go, but we definitely have many more pluses than minuses going for us, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

By the way, as for cowboy boots? I have owned one pair in my life, and they were a stage costume.

Although the guy is a complete idiot, do you remember Mark Cuban's comments when he voted on moving the Sonics here?

They sure do use the sterotypes down here in Texas. Living in Dallas, there are people that ask me where I am from and I tell them and "most" people usually respond with statements like their are sure alot of Casinos up their in OK I guess that's all there is to do there? Many Texans despise Oklahoma and I am sure it is the other way around. I have met other people here in Dallas that are originally from Oklahoma especially OKC and Tulsa and most of them state they will never come back to Oklahoma to live because it just is not progressive enough business wise and it is so much cleaner in Texas than Oklahoma. Even the former Oklahomans bash their state so perception wise, I think alot of Okies sterotype themselves. Part of what makes a state is the people that reside in it and if they do not have positive things to say about it or try to make improvements then Oklahoma will always be trapped in their sterotypical ways.

Mark Cuban is a prick, plain and simple. And he lives in a metroplex that is elitist and snooty.

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Yupp. Jealousy on behalf of superficial Dallasites that can't handle the fact that they know that the casino industry in Oklahoma is already approaching resort status, something Texas won't see for a long time. And, think about it... if they assume that there is all there is to do in Oklahoma, then their IQ has a handicap attached to it.

They had the opportunity to make a difference, but sold out to Texas. I have no remorse. They never cared for Oklahoma and never will. They followed the herd. Which doesn't make them pioneers. It makes them sheep. If they understood or even believed that OKC is conquering the barriers business-wise, they wouldn't believe such nonsense. To be fair, in their defense, Oklahoma City wasn't in any way a progressive business community in 1994. That was 15 years ago. Indeed, it is their choice to move to Texas. It is a free country and they are not obligated to move back, but by writing off Oklahoma they are in part responsible for the slow progress.

That's a bunch of horse $hit. So much cleaner??? Where??? Between Houston and Dallas, there is enough freeway-side litter to do circles around OKC. The slummy rust heaps in south Dallas don't do the city much justice, nor does the fifth ward in Houston. Texas and Oklahoma are just like every place else... dirty spots and clean spots. That's just the reality. Oklahoma City has its dirty parts as well. So does Tulsa, and Wichita, and Kansas City, and...

Last week while driving to Kroger on Loop 336 in Conroe, a sedan in front of me rolled down there window, and out came a McDonalds cup, then the McDonalds bag, then some more trash that must have crowded their floorboard. And, the car had a Texas plate. Don't mess with Texas my a$$.

I totally agree. It's getting ridiculous. There are people in Houston that have a great appreciation for Oklahoma and its people, and yet people in Oklahoma can't get past the Negative Nellie attitude.

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And that is an issue that exists among Americans who aren't even educated enough about their own country. We're talking about people who don't even know the correct tally of how many states are in America (the count ranges from 43 to 65, and one guy lumped in the Canadian provinces). And many of these people have degrees. I am sorry, but a degree is meaningless if you lack basic knowledge and appreciation of your own country.

Some even think the national capital is New York. Others are convinced if it is a California cow, the meat is somehow superior to a Nebraska cow. It's a damn cow for crying out loud.

Three years ago, Patrick, I showed you my OKC tour book. I have been saving my own $$$ to print it because the same stereotype you encountered at these conferences also exists in the publishing industry. Time after time after time I was turned down, and was near the brink of chucking several years worth of work in the garbage. Tourist attractions in OKC, no matter how much it surprises out of state visitors, don't jive with a New York publisher's logic. Now that I have most of my medical bills paid off from 2007, I have the finances in place and Steve Lackmeyer from the Oklahoman has been a big help. I am not quitting.

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The funny thing is I know quite a few in DFW who have bought land up near Lake Murray or Lake of the Arbuckles because it is affordable and most anticipate retiring to hose lakes. They seem to really like it and stay in DFW because of the money, most don't really like the place that well but do it for professional reasons.

I'm in Texas, enjoy it, love the Plano/Frisco/McKinney area, but I do not disparage Oklahoma, to the contrary. Many former Oklahomans work with me, and I've come to know others around, and I don't think the majority are negative about their former residence. Lots of Oklahoma pride is displayed, as a matter a fact... a ton of OSU and OU decals, flags, shirts etc... and that's something here, to display, trust me! LOL
I hear Texans talk all the time, now, about 'running up to Oklahoma City and check out Bricktown' or the casinos, (not just for the gambling, but for the events, concerts). OKC needs to run more ads down here, but the word is out anyway, its a place to go see!
That said, I welcome the Oklahomans to visit this area too!

I live and work in the Washington DC area and my experience is that DALLAS is way overvalued. Oklahomans who live there should branch out a little further from the SW. There are much better and more diverse, cultured and astetically appealing places e.g Boston, Seattle, DC, Charolette, Denver, Phoenix etc. What DALLAS did was CREATE an image (Big hats, Big $$,Big D) with a topography much like OKC), no oceans, no mountains, BUT like Las Vegas which is located in a very barren desert, they did not dwell on the perceived negatives but built and image. OKC and Oklahoma should be about the business of image creation for itself not continuing to complain about what it is or is not.

...pops open a beer and salutes dalelakin. Salud! I mean, "to yo health paudnah!"

> Salud!

Yeah, with some ranch dressing if it ain't a bother

I find it funny in here that Patrick said something along the lines of cowboy boots being associated with low class. Some of the wealthiest people I know show up in western boots. It's what you call...culture.... :-)

boots is such a generic term. There's turd kickers, clod kickers, floor scooters, church cloppers and about seven or eight more stages before you get to Bob Macy Boots and another 3-4 before you get to Clay and Aubrey Western themed event boots.

Boots is Boots is akin to saying Cimarron, Jamil's and Red Prime are all just steak joints.

I'm inclined to think you're a troll, Patrick, but your post count seems to indicate you're here quite a bit, so I'll weigh in again.


Nope, actually. I don’t mind change. But my family came to Oklahoma for the Land Run of 1889, and we still own the same land. That’s history. That’s culture. That’s family. We grow wheat and we rent land out to graze cattle. I do, in fact, wear cowboy boots many days. The other side of my family is Cherokee, and I don't think I need to tell you how long the Cherokee have been in this country (though only in Oklahoma since about 1839). But complaining about the topographical terrain in Oklahoma and the cattle that make the beef that feeds you (unless you're a veggie) and our nation is just plain dumb.

I also live in the city. I speak fluent Spanish and I lived in Madrid, Spain for a short time. I have traveled in many other countries as well including Costa Rica, France, the UK, and Morocco. I attend a university, and am a national merit scholar. I don’t say this to brag, but merely to point out that having a rural background does not make you low class, uneducated, ignorant to the “big city” or anything else. You make yourself what you are. P.S. I never once mentioned “trailor” [sic] parks nor teepees.


You also said,
I won’t get into petty details, but cowboy boots are not low class. That is a stereotype you have in your own mind. P.S. Paying upwards of $500 and more for a pair of custom boots is not something I would think “low class” (whatever that means) citizens would pay.

No shedding necessary. People see what they want to see. If you want to see a place of rednecks that you can change to be what you want them to be, then that’s what you’ll see. If you prefer to see a region that is doing well economically compared to the rest of the nation, has great modern research centers alongside rural farms and ranches, then you can see that too.

The fact of the matter is, our nation needs agriculture, and it just so happens we have a rich history of that. Doesn’t mean we can’t have modern things too, but we can’t exactly “shed” our rural roots, because we feed our nation with those roots.

You don't make too many friends by looking down on them and pointing out things you obviously aren't familiar with and insinuating that they are less educated. (emphasis added). Do you see where I'm coming from here?


But what do I know? I’m just an unedukated kountry bumpkin that wears dem boots. I’ll go back to my farm that’s been in the direct family for 120 years now.

I'm actually one of the original members that started this site, although my original account was replaced with this one. Todd Reagor, myself, and another guy started OKCTalk. Todd was the original owner, then sold it to Pete. I used to be on the administrative board here, although I'm much too busy for that now. If my old administrative account were still in effect, I'd have almost 15,000 posts! I've been active in civic service for years now, and have been involved with OKC public forums since 1996, when I started on OKC City Hall's Talkback message board, then run by Mark Gilmore. This site was created out of response to the loss of Brian Bates's Oklahomasown website, which replaced the city hall's message board, when the city chose to ax it.

I've been fighting for progressive change in OKC for years now. In fact, the coined term "Renaissance City" was originally started by myself, and others, along with Steve Lackmeyer back in the late 1990's.

Just in response to your comments about yourself, I attended UCO on a full ride with a BS in Biology, went to OU Medical School, and am now an MD at OU Medical Center/VA Medical Center. I grew up in OKC, being a product of the OKC Public School system.

BTW, I joined this site at it's origin, in May 2004. I started this thread in 7/2004! : http://www.okctalk.com/79-post1.html

That's good. I enjoy the site, so I thank you for your work. I have not been here that long so there would be no way for me to know that. I wasn't doubting your education. I was pointing out mine to show that having a rural background does not make one uneducated nor low class. You mentioned I should venture outside to any major metropolitan area, and I was simply telling you I've had plenty of worldwide experience.

But that doesn't change my comments on the original topic: that being a "Renaissance City" doesn't require shedding any of what we already are. Tener's and Shepler's don't have to only cater to tourists...indeed they can't, because there are actual people who work on farms and ranches that shop there!

In addition, Native American culture is not a dead thing we go to see in a museum. It is continuing, and always will continue. The Cherokee Nation (the only tribe I have direct experience with, which is why I'm referencing it) is a sovereign nation with its own government, police officers, laws, citizens and language! There are more bilingual Cherokees than there have been in 50 years, thanks to new immersion programs. So why should we simply exploit the culture for our state's economic benefit by "celebrating" it in museums? It is what we are, not was what we are. Why should we become a clone of some other city?

The fact of the matter is, our history and culture which you have called "lower class" is in fact a necessary part of our nation's economy. Beef doesn't show up in your burgers and wheat turn into bread by magic, it must be raised and grown somewhere. It just so happens we do a lot of that here. Does that mean we can't also have modern, "21st century" aspects? No. But why should we shed anything that we have been or are? I can think of no other reason other than you think that it is "low class."