I think the problem is -- you don't like the answers you're getting.

TOM ELMORE

thanx fritts! my thoughts exactly. my brain cell disabled melon that i'm working with couldn't quite articulate it in the manner that you did.

tom, i believe i'm starting to see why no one is willing to debate you. perhaps if you had an editor of sorts or a spokesperson who could speak in short concise answers for you (and not delve into biblical stories and what not)... i think you possibly would be better received.

Tom

I just read a 46 line discourse by you about the Mormon Church which had not a single mention of anything related to transportation. Please understand that I respect the Mormon Church, but this discussion is supposed to be about transport. It is not a matter of not liking your answers; it is that you seldom GIVE any answers. We tire of your formless rants.

okiebadger - the Mormon article was about establishing the conspiracy theory that the Mormon Church is hording all of the nations rail funds to establish a network of rail transit that will lead everyone to Temple Square in Salt Lake City. You see, SLC got the 2002 Olympic Games as a cover to build the initial local rail network. Then they brought in government leaders and hypnotized them to build rail systems in their own cities. Once each city has their own rail network the Mormons will persuade other government leaders to connect the cities with high-speed rail, thus establishing a regional rail network. In short, it is the same thing Tom Elmore wants to do, except without the hypnotism.

__________________
Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

Well said, Frittergirl!

As previously noted, for some on this forum, information, even from manifestly objective sources, is "acceptable" only as long as it says whatever it is that these think they want to hear.

As a matter of common logic, it's hard to get to meaningful answers if you don't understand the questions -- or persist in demanding answers to irrelevant questions.

The reality is this: Rail as the central public transit technology in a given metropolitan area has been repeatedly shown to be the answer.

That would be good news for thoughtful Oklahomans -- inasmuch as we have more publicly-owned rail infrastructure than anybody else, radiating from the best, currently unused, potential multimodal center in the West if not in the nation.

In the developing environment, it's reasonable to believe that cities that have had enough actual leadership over the last 30 years to have some effective transit in operation will be those that receive any near-term boosts in federal transit funding.

"Them that's got shall get -- them that's not shall lose," and all that.

Oklahoma City is distinguished from the long line of completely, crashingly, hard-headedly unprepared US cities only by the presence of Union Station and its existing rail connections.

Throw that away -- because "you've just got to tear something up" -- and this town goes to the back of the line of the completely unprepared -- with nothing to show but "an empty cup."

These things are not, at all, hard to understand -- unless you're just so determined to follow in the footsteps of the civic vandals who destroyed downtown in the 1970s that you refuse to listen.

Fortunately, the fight has been waged, and quite possible won -- without you.

Ya'll have a nice time.

TOM ELMORE
NATI - Solutions to the Nation's Transportation Problems

The Edmond Sun, Edmond, OK - I-40 plan may derail

Published: June 13, 2008 09:04 pm

I-40 plan may derail

Walter Jenny Jr.
The Edmond Sun

EDMOND — In a remarkable turnabout, a federal agency has thrown a kink in the reconstruction of the I-40 Crosstown Expressway. The decision brings new hope for passenger rail service in Oklahoma, and headaches for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation in the face of soaring costs and dwindling resources.

The federal Surface Transportation Board, which succeeded the Interstate Commerce Commission in its 1995 reorganization, has jurisdiction over the railroad industry in this country, including line abandonments. In January 2007 the board was persuaded that the rail lines in downtown Oklahoma City had been abandoned for more than two years, triggering a federal regulation that allowed the lines to be expeditiously removed and clearing the way for the I-40 rerouting project.

As it turns out, the rail lines had not been abandoned. While construction began on the highway project, Ed Kessler of Norman filed a petition to reopen the abandonment decision. He presented evidence, including photographs, indicating BNSF and Stillwater Central Railroad trains still were using the line to serve businesses in the area.

The federal regulation is pretty cut and dried. If a rail line has been out of service for at least two years, the carrier easily can abandon the line through an expedited procedure. But that process depends on the truthfulness of the information submitted. If the application “contains false or misleading information,” federal regulations require the application to be rejected.

So, based on Kessler’s evidence and some of BNSF’s own admissions, on June 5 the board reopened its January 2007 decision and declared the application void. BNSF can file a new application to abandon the line, but that process will not be an expedited one.

Our national rail policy is “to ensure the development and continuation of a sound rail transportation system,” “to foster sound economic conditions in transportation and to ensure effective competition and coordination between rail carriers and other modes” of transportation, as well as to encourage and promote energy conservation and other goals.

In an application to abandon the Union Station tracks, it seems BNSF would have to convince the board that the integrity of Oklahoma’s statewide rail system “is not necessary” to carry out that transportation policy. It becomes more than a simple question of whether a short rail line actually has been abandoned for a couple of years. That option is no longer on the table.

Oklahomans also should thank Ed Kessler for his persistence. He and a small band of other concerned residents have proven that the system can work, and that powerful interests cannot use “false or misleading information” to frustrate public policy. It’s been a long time since we’ve seen David take on Goliath, but in this case right won over might.

The decision raises new concerns about the massive highway project and the castration of rail service possibilities in Oklahoma. A lot has changed since ODOT decided a 10-lane, 70 mile per hour serpentine raceway was needed through downtown Oklahoma City. Gas prices have soared. The economy has soured. The housing bubble has burst, and the commute from suburbia is no longer as attractive. The nation’s largest independent oil and gas producer wants to build the city’s tallest skyscraper in the heart of downtown, with no means to move 2,000 employees in and out of the urban core.

The public has indicated light rail transit is its No. 1 priority for MAPS III. Oklahoma needs to follow through on its commitment to develop rail transportation before too much time and money are wasted. The Union Station link is the keystone to that system; remove it, and the entire structure collapses.

Union Station was acquired in 1989 with mostly federal funds, expressly to be returned to use as a multimodal transportation center. That promise has not been fulfilled. The state already owns 866 miles of rail from border to border that connect through Union Station. For the most part, it sits idle today. That remarkable system could be the foundation of a model intrastate transportation system that would be the envy of other states and a boon to economic growth throughout Oklahoma for years to come.

Old Will Rogers would have had a field day with the Crosstown Expressway. He once said if you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging. That’s the dilemma we’re in. The Department of Transportation needs to curb this monstrosity before it gets out of hand, and revise it to spare the Union Station rail yard for Oklahoma’s future growth and prosperity.



WALTER JENNY JR. is an Edmond resident and serves as secretary of the Oklahoma Democratic Party.

::

aren't all of it's employees already downtown?

I don't know if all of them are downtown, but Devon does have office space spread across a number of downtown buildings.

I wonder what kind of impact a collapsing crosstown would have on a "sound transit infrastructure"? I'll tell you where ODOT messed up, they should torn out the rail yard first.

__________________
Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

Where ODOT messed up was when it put BNSF in a position where it had no choice but to lie to the STB.

Are lies preferrable to the truth?

If citizens don't demand the truth, how can they expect good government?

TOM ELMORE

MR. ELMORE, do you REALLY think we do not need a new crosstown????

You and your friends are blocking progress on a road than needs to be built NOW before we have another Minneapolis on our hands.

You. are. ridiculous.

A question for Mr. Elmore: Is Union Station conveniently connected with the BNSF north south rails on which Amtrak resides?

I ask this because I seriously doubt if any passenger service will be moved off the current tracks. This is because of the inertia of the Federal Government and the Amtral subsidy. The Santa Fe depot is adequate, but Union Station is better, and its owned by OKC, not Mr. Brewer. But I give it a snowballs chance at snagging Amtrak.

Union Station is an engineering marvel, without at grade crossings and unblocked freight docks as Tom pointed out. But I don't want all of those 18 wheelers loading and unloading in Downtown OKC. Put the intermodal hub in the burbs.

Union Station would be a great light rail/urban transit stop.

Mr. Elmore, you have done your home work, your enthusiasm is unmatched, but the conditions that created Union Station no longer exist. The cost of oil will undoubtedly create mass transit in OKC. It just won't elevate Union Station to the pinnacle Mr. Elmore longs for. You could do so much more for your city if you would put your energy into light rail/mass transit that included Union Station as an adjunct, not the end-all inter-modal hub for the ages.

The state of the existing Crosstown is ODOT's problem. They have cultivated and nurtured that problem now for many, many years, with the inexplicable support and protection of officials at several levels of government.

I'd suggest they fix the current structure, ASAP, and move on to some of the rest of the disastrous mess they've made of the state road system over the last 30 years. They might want to "put some bumpers on the piers of bridges over navigable rivers" and a few seemingly-common-sense things like that -- along with meeting some of the more obvious road-system needs.

Those of us who've urged a more rational course in the matter of the downtown I-40 segment over the last fifteen years have the same message for ODOT and its co-dependent facilitators today as always: As far as we're concerned, OKC Union Station's rail yard is not negotiable.

Intelligent, conservative reuse and careful maintenance of existing assets is plainly a large part of the answer to the trouble we now face. Of course, that would mean a complete "culture change" at the Oklahoma Department of Transportation.

Why would responsible citizens accept any less?

TOM ELMORE
NATI - Solutions to the Nation's Transportation Problems

This citizen wants I-40 moved, not repaired. I personally am more interested in the revitalization of downtown than preservation of a railroad line in an imperfect location that is not even wanted by it's current owner OR the city. I consider myself a responsible citizen who is interested in Oklahoma City moving beyond what it has been in the past, who is interested in our city becoming a beautiful place where people not only want to live, but where people not living here would like to relocate to. The Crosstown is too small, dangerous and an eyesore. It needs to go.

Well said Betts.

Mr. Elmore's time would be better spent pushing for light rail and commuter rail, something actually attainable.

Right on, Betts.

Tom is fighting for the wrong cause and all he's doing is causing further delays and driving up the price on the new crosstown.

Good job on avoiding PJ's question, Mr. Elmore.

No surprise there.



There's only a couple possible answers...

Both the north-south BNSF Red Rock Subdivision line and the east-west lines are important to strategic intrastate and interstate connections. All will be needed.

OKC now has a choice -- which probably won't be on the table long -- to be a mere "stop" along regional lines centered elsewhere -- or to be the regional hub, itself. For that purpose, Union Station is the ideal -- and critical -- starting point.

Ready interchange was always possible between the north-south Santa Fe line and the east-west lines during the days of commercial passenger services. The paths of most of these interchanges still exist.

However, fast, through-access to Union Station yard for north-south trains is now more in reach than before, and would be absolutely required for passenger trains originating in Chicago or Houston but turning toward Tulsa / St. Louis or Lawton/Texas at Oklahoma City.

The opportunity to establish ourselves as the regional center for urgently needed rail development, and in the doing, establishing Oklahoma as the technological center for "advanced surface transport" is here, today.

Are any of our leaders willing to see it?

TOM ELMORE

Tom: I always thought you were advocating light rail.

Long distance rail?

So, we're discussing national passenger traffic? I don't really care if we're the regional center for "urgently needed rail development". I thought we were discussing local needs for light rail and mass transportation? And why wouldn't the Amtrack station be a better option? It could be extended north and south, could go up more floors, it's still more centrally located, and it's already on a used passenger line.

Isn't part of the disagreement here tied into whether folks are talking about Union Station's fit as an inner city transport hub, or talking instead of Union Station's fit as a regional hub for commerce and also hanfdling local peep movement?

Sorry to be dense, but I've spent way, way more time the last few weeks with grandbaby play than transport matters, so I profess to being somewhat confused. However, I readily also concede being confused due to deliberate inattention has been absolutely fantastic.

Union station lines are DEAD .. this will only delay the new cross town and cost of city a few mil extra dollars ..

the I 40 cross town is not "Odots problem" .. it is our entire states problem ..

and union station as a regional transport hud .. you are the one not liking what you are hearing ..