I don't think anything I could say or do would convince folks who think taking four miles of I-40 eight blocks off its longstanding path just long enough to wreck the state's central rail passenger yard is in any way acceptable.

I appreciate all the advice, Mid -- but I have to ask, how many of these fights have you won?

Why the hell are we still talking about this? I-40 won, and the damn piece of crap yard lost. Lets' just delete the thread so Tom stops posting crap about random articles or conspiracy theories. Notice he's even bleeding that crap into other threads now?

Gee, Bomb -- I just want you to know that you're really hurting my feelings with your obvious "damn 'em with faint praise" strategy.

Things come and things go -- but people-friendly access will always be an indispensible key to economic development, no matter where or on "which thread" it's being discussed.

Yes -- and by the way, how many of these fights have you won?

Haven't had a chance to fight one yet. Heard plenty of stories though, and I have a fine tutor in the subject -- and I know you know that.

As far as my lack of a track record, that's really pretty irrelevant. Perhaps it even allows me to have better perspective in this matter. Tell me -- what is it you think you can actually accomplish by staying this course? How is this better than creating a better alternative plan and promoting it as an alternative to MAPS? Do you honestly expect to win this fight if you continue to stay the course? If not, then how does asking me the above question improve your lot in any way?

You are in a great place to lead a revolution in Oklahoma with regard to our transportation options. I really hate to see you squander your momentum on a lost cause.

Bomber, it sounds like you might be advocating a lock on this thread and creation to two new threads - one about the history and design of Union Station and another for those who want to read Tom Elmore's complaints about ODOT and the Union Station rail yard. Do you believe this thread has been hijacked?

This is 40 pages of Tom Elmore ranting. When was the last page that actually talked about the history and design of the station? I see Tom jumping in on page two.

I suggest we start a thread called TOM ELMORE, and open it up to everyone to unleash on him. It will be good therapy for everyone, and would therefore qualify as a true discussion on Oklahoma City development and civic issues. Besides, I have a lot more quadrants that I'm itching to unveil.

LordGerald, I think that would go against OKC Talk rules. But I'm very serious about asking if this thread should be locked and new ones be started. What I hear others suggesting is maybe the moderators should let Tom have his thread complaining about ODOT and the rail yard, and let there be another thread for people who want to talk about the station without going through 30 pages of Tom Elmore's complaints.

I'll 2nd that.

Well CuatrodeMayo, are you then asking the moderators to make this happen?

I remind all that it is also possible to modify your Settings & Options as follows:



I've not yet done that, but it is possible.

__________________
Doug
http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtownOKC.htm
http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklahomacity.htm
http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/

Yes.

Or give TE the spammer treatment (see the Hard Rock thread).

Tom's about 18 months too late.

I'm all for the new threads. Discussion on Union station has it's place. It's an important historical structure, but Tom's continual ranting about a lost battle isn't going to help. We can have an honest discussion regarding future utilization of the station WITHOUT his type of copy/paste editorial.

i'd say that the last umpteen pages of this thread is pretty much dedicated to the union station debate. anyone interested can create a union station thread in the nostalgia section for those who just want to discuss history without getting into current issues.

also... there will be no 'unleash everybody on tom elmore' thread. any thread created to taunt or humiliate another user will be closed. try to keep your discussion civil.

-M

US RAILCAR TO RESUME PRODUCTION OF FORMER COLORADO RAILCAR DIESEL MULTI-UNIT PASSENGER EQUIPMENT

US Railcar to Resume Production of Former Colorado Railcar DMU - Business News - redOrbit

There he goes again...

mmm - can we rename this thread "Tom Elmore/Union Station" if someone creates a new thread titled "Union Station/reuse"?

how about this... 'union station - transit complaints'... i'm not entirely keen on making the title of the thread about any one person.

if the discussion of the new thread is reuse, then nostalgia may not be the best forum. however, whatever the topic is it will be enforced.

-M

That's actually good news. I had hoped Colorado Railcar's DMU would be used in Denver's Fastracks commuter component. Maybe it still can. As long as the new livery is not the god awful maroon they used for show-and-tell.

From United Rail Passenger Alliance United Rail Passenger Alliance.

HISTORIC TRAIN STATIONS: THE PAST IS PROLOGUE

By William Lindley, Scottsdale, Arizona

Imagine putting a 10-story building in the middle of Los Angeles International Airport's runway. Ridiculous! you say. Yet, that's what Kansas City did with their Union Station – built a mid-rise building right smack in the middle of the train platform area, destroying its ability to be a train station. Saint Louis built a mall inside its Union Station, but at least most of that could be removed fairly easily (malls are always changing, anyway).

Are our historic train stations only to become museums (like Kansas City's) or should they have a rightful place in our transportation future?

Atlanta recently made what appears to be a bad decision that will prevent some mainline trains from conveniently entering its planned new downtown station, but at least the station will be downtown. Saint Paul, Minnesota likewise is moving forward with the renovation of its Union Depot, close to downtown – as light rail, and possibly a southward extension of the upcoming Northstar commuter trains get underway.

These cities understand, as in most real estate, station sites are about Location, Location, Location. That means walking distance to downtown; it means connections with commuter trains and streetcars and buses; it means a place where mainline trains can move in and out easily, and where rail services can be provided.

When the national argument for passenger rail was at its lowest point, Dallas shortchanged itself on the latter, by providing only three platforms – barely enough for Trinity Railway commuter trains and one or two intercity trains. San Antonio, in contrast, found new life for its main depot building as a food an entertainment complex called Historic Sunset Station at St. Paul Square, but, built a harmonious, functional, and pleasant new adjacent passenger and train servicing facility just a few feet away, using the original passenger platforms.

If the original station does not fit today's demands, it is appropriate to build a new building “around” an existing depot as at San Antonio. But, also have the fortitude to build an updated facility in a new location convenient to the city's modern activity centers. Some of our best historic stations and depots, often over a century old, are located in parts of cities and towns no longer desirable for 24-hour public use because of dangerous neighbors.

While it is highly desirable to keep these older structures and find new uses for them, it is equally important and more desirable to meet the needs of the traveling public by providing a station facility in a safe and secure location. The most beautiful or historic station can be meticulously restored, but if it’s in a bad part of town or lacks adequate parking or transit connections, the purpose of a proper, useful, and desirable gateway for rail passengers into a city or town is defeated.

An interesting point of discussion has been for former New York Central train station and tower in Buffalo, New York. The building has been empty since 1979 and is in a high state of disrepair. The sprawling station complex is located 2.5 miles from downtown Buffalo, and was designed to host an astonishing 3,200 passengers per hour. Debate and plans are raging in Buffalo as to how best preserve this architectural gem, perhaps through reincarnation as a high speed rail terminal.

In Detroit, a similarly magnificent structure is in even more dire condition; the old Michigan Central station and tower in another huge complex sits outside of the normal traffic flow of downtown Detroit. The local government in Detroit has decreed the building should be torn down it is in such bad condition, but supporters of this huge architectural marvel are looking to create a new life for the station either through rail-related purposes or as a convention center and casino, perhaps an international trade processing center (The station is near the Ambassador Bridge and gateway to Canada.), or as police headquarters for the City of Detroit.

When Michigan Central originally constructed the complex in 1913, it was built to last a lifetime, and Amtrak used the facility until 1988. At the time of its construction, it was the tallest railroad station in the world, with its massive tower atop the station, going up 18 floors and comprising 500,000 square feet of space, including the station areas. Located about two miles southwest of downtown Detroit, the station was always considered to be outside the loop of normal downtown traffic. The hope today is a revival of the station building will also bring a revival of the surrounding neighborhood.

In Jacksonville, Florida, the downtown Union Station is today the Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center, named in honor of the late CSX Transportation Chairman of the Board who took a personal interest in saving the historic Jacksonville Union Station, designed by New York Architect Kenneth Mackensie Murcheson. Murcheson also designed Pennsylvania Station in Baltimore, Maryland, which is still in use today by Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor.

When Jacksonville Union Station opened at midnight on November 17, 1919, with its vast array of through-service and stub end tracks, it was designed to handle up to 210 trains a day. On opening day, the station handled more than 110 trains and 20,000 passengers. Every U.S. president from Woodrow Wilson through Richard Nixon traveled through the station. The station was mothballed in 1974, and Amtrak was moved to a far suburban station in the middle of one of Jacksonville’s industrial areas with a high crime rate.

While today’s primary use of the Union Station complex is a convention center, plans are also on the drawing board to remake the complex into a full multi-modal facility, which will include Amtrak, commuter rail, intercity bus, local transit, and downtown airport check-in facility where passengers will be able to come to the complex, check in for their airline, and then take secure bus service from the downtown station to the airport on the north end of Jacksonville. Ideally, when Amtrak moves back downtown, the present, far-suburban Amtrak station will stay in use as a second facility in a sprawling metropolitan area.

For all modern, full service stations, all the local connections – commuter trains, streetcars, buses, taxis, parking – create a "lesser matrix effect," where the intercity train matrix meets the local distribution matrix. The better these two systems tie together, the more useful they both become. Relieved of the necessity to carry every passengers everywhere, intercity trains can again rely, as they did in earlier days, on feeder regional and commuter trains. But, that does mean the Limited needs a stop at one or two suburban stations on either side of downtown, perhaps 10 to 30 miles out, at regional train stations (with that 10-to-30 mile spacing based on regional service levels), to collect and distribute passengers.

Let's look at one more example.

In Phoenix, the 1923 Union Station is still the junction point between BNSF and Union Pacific right downtown. The station is three short blocks from City Hall and a few more blocks away from the new City Hall light rail station (which Valley Metro Rail, in its wisdom, calls "First Avenue and Jefferson Street and Central Avenue and Washington Street Station" – not terribly easy to write and remember).

Phoenix Union Station maintains its alignments for the original six through tracks (a seventh was added during World War II) and several stub-ends on both sides of the depot. There is no other location close to downtown which could accommodate more than perhaps even two platforms, because of the street layout and the historic warehouse district.

Advanced studies are underway for both commuter rail in metro Phoenix and for express trains to Tucson (120 miles to the southeast). The Tucson trains would not be "high speed," but would likely travel at 79 MPH or 90 MPH on upgraded (double-and-triple-tracked) Union Pacific rails. UP, BNSF, and Arizona's short-line railroads are involved, and it is known the railroads are businesses and expect any passenger agreement to be beneficial to their freight business. Arizona has learned from California and New Mexico, Utah, and other western states which have succeeded in working relationships and actual operations with host freight railroads.

Valley Metro Rail ("METRO"), meanwhile, is planning a westward extension in the median of Interstate 10, taking LRVs potentially right past the railroad depot. There has been some talk also of historic or modern streetcars along Washington Street from downtown to the Capitol at 19th Avenue, should the LRT line be deferred or rerouted – and these streetcars could certainly connect Union Station to the Capitol with its thousands of daily workers at the west end, and the LRT line at the east end.

The city of Phoenix has certainly grown since the historic downtown station was built. In the 1920s, a civic goal was 100,000 citizens; today the city boasts 1.5 million, and the metro area over 4 million. But, as the population has expanded fifteen-fold, transportation options have expanded, too. Union Station was built to handle 90% of the transportation needs of a city of 100,000, so it certainly could handle 10% of transportation of a city ten times larger. It still fits the city.

And, it fits the city, too, in its Mission Revival architectural style. It is not enough for a station to be correctly located (both in the city and on the railroad mains) – a station also serves as a gateway, setting the mood for travelers entering a city or town. A station is part of a city's identity; and Phoenix Union Station does fit.

So, in Phoenix, at least for the upcoming decade, Union Station is the only logical intercity train station.

In the future, following Berlin, Germany's motif, a new modern station could be built west of the Airport LRT station (which METRO again calls "44th Street and Washington Street" instead of “Airport”). There is room enough between 38th Street and 44th Street to build an eight or 10 platform railroad station with connections to the new people-mover (to all airport terminals, parking garages, the car rental center, taxicabs and tour buses). This new station would handle commuter trains, intrastate express trains, intercity trains from Los Angeles, San Diego, the Grand Canyon, El Paso, Albuquerque, and points east.

Yet, even in that scenario, Union Station remains the only choice for a downtown depot. Perhaps the commuter trains and express trains will stop there, with the intercity trains serving the Airport station. Once regional commuter trains cover the intermediate stations, a modern Golden State intercity train would likely stop at suburban Gilbert on the east side and suburban Goodyear on the west, with those stations' regional rail connections. Arizona Express trains would likely serve Union Station, the Airport, Tempe (with Arizona State University's huge main campus), Mesa, and Gilbert and just a few more intermediate stops north of downtown Tucson.

A mix of trains and services then blankets southern Arizona. Union Station steps back at that point from some of its design role, and becomes more an historic gathering place, a meeting place, perhaps with conference facilities or shopping in addition to regional rail and streetcar connections.

Southern California has the newest and among the most robust examples of several overlaid systems, although there is room for improvement even there. Los Angeles Union Station has been well refitted to its modern role, a re-interpretation of its historic one; the same is true of San Diego's Santa Fe station. These serve as models for other cities; look, too, to Saint Paul. Learn from mistakes at Kansas City and near-misses like Dallas. Denver would be wise to consider the constraints at Dallas as it looks to reconfigure its historic station built in 1881 as part of a new development, even as it seeks to bring commuter and more intercity service back to the station.

Many of our historic train stations should continue their revival along with their passenger trains... past is prologue.

Wow, Tom, that's sooooooooooooooooooooooooo exciting.