Those "horrid grain bins" are part of a multi-multimillion dollar business that has been in operation there since 1944. Producers Cooperative Oil Mills is one of the biggest in the nation. They are not going anywhere. In fact, Producers Cooperative Oil Mill has storage for 125,000 tons of whole cottonseed; PCOM can now process as much as 1000 tons of whole cotton seed daily. The ability to crush more seed required more cottonseed than was being supplied by Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas members, so in 1999 PCOM purchased Osceola Products Company. Through this purchase, locations in Osceola, Arkansas; and Kennett, Missouri were acquired with storage capacity for about 200,000 tons of whole cottonseed. In the year 2000, PCOM bought land at Covington, Tennessee and has built 60,000 tons of cottonseed storage at that location. The acquisition of these facilities resulted in the formation of Producers Mid-South Company (PMSC), a wholly owned subsidiary of Producers Cooperative Oil Mill. Locations at PMSC are used for cottonseed acquisitions and storage only. Cottonseed from these facilities needed to supplement the crush in Oklahoma City is transported there and additional seed is sold into the whole seed market.

They aren't going anywhere. They will be here when we are all long gone. So get used to those "horrid grain bins".

Glad they have use. Assumed they did.

But that doesn't change the fact they look like crap in their present location.

It doesn't really matter where I've lived. Actually I have lived in "big" cities. What matters is what people who already live in Oklahoma City consider reasonable options for living. As the only person I know who is moving from Nichols Hills to downtown, I can tell you that there aren't a lot of families I know who are even that interested in moving to the Triangle/Deep Deuce area. If you put a "Central Park" downtown, and put residential development near it, people will move downtown. A huge park like that would be a big draw. If you try to put a significant amount of residential living near a interstate highway/train/truck/bus station in Oklahoma City, you will lose your shirt.

"If you try to put a significant amount of residential living near a interstate highway/train/truck/bus station in Oklahoma City, you will lose your shirt."

You should check out Mockingbird Station in Dallas. Just sayin'...

Mockingbird Station has lofts and apartments. It's a lifestyle center. Contrast that with what's available along Central Park. Families live along Central Park. Dallas is just about the only city I've been in that's uglier than Oklahoma City. I love this place, but I don't really know why.

Central Park
Boston Public Garden
Millenium Park, Chicago
No park, Dallas

Which of those four cities doesn't have something that speaks to its' residents and visitors?

Maybe so, but they aren't going anywhere. The cost of relocating that infrastructure would be so enormous that they will be there for many years to come. But hey...they may look like crap to some, but to others, they look like "money". Economic benefit. Tax dollars. etc.

yukong - you need to learn about opportunity costs. Those silos will be gone in 10 years. The land below them will become more valuable than what is being stored on the land. At that point the land will be sold and the industrial use will be transfer to less valuable land.

Opportunity cost - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

I think we can all agree that OKC needs both a central park and a reliable transit system. If a large population is going to live downtown they are going to want to be able to hop on a bus, metro, or railcar to get from point A to B. Driving a car 100% of the time is not viable. The Rack Up bicycle program was a good step to encourage alternative transportation.

On the flip side, it's going to be pretty boring if Core to Shore is nothing but buildings. OKC lacks a major park for concert venues, events, and day to day gatherings. All of our parks are spread out over the city, which is great but it's time for us to have another gem to the city. Think of what Centennial Park is to Atlanta.

So my point is we need both. If Union Station is going to demoralize a nice, urban park then the park should win out. If it at all possible find an alternative to accommodate both. I'm with those too who think it would be nice to see Union Station return to a functional use.

To be honest with you, although I was a big proponent of light rail, I've completely flipflopped on the issue. My daughters moved to Chicago, and this is what I hear from them and have noticed when I visit. The bus system is far more flexible and useable than the El. The El is great is you live with in six blocks of it and don't mind the walk. The bus gets you where you want to go as fast and with less changes, if you factor in the fact that you have to walk farther to find an El stop. Bus routes can be changed very quickly to reflect changes in usage. Buses can be added or subtracted based on need. Trollies are equally flexible. A good bus system has to run frequently and reliably and cover a lot of routes. But if it does so, it's great transportation. I'm pretty sure buses can run on natural gas.

I think we're glorifying an old set of tracks and a building that can be used for a lot of different things in our community, and not thinking clearly about convenience. Convenience, besides cost, probably, is the most important factor in coming up with a transit system people will actually use. Especially people who are used to getting in their cars and driving directly to where they want to go.

We're not thinking enough about aesthetics, which has been a big problem in Oklahoma City. I've said it before, but perhaps it bears repeating. When I moved here from Denver (having also lived in Chicago and my husband growing up outside of and spending a lot of time in NYC), our very first thought was "Where are the big community park/s?" Where do people gather on a Sunday afternoon when the weather is good? People here gather at the mall. That needs to be changed. Go to Millennium Park on a weekend and it is thronged with people. Go to a concert there or stop by one of the museums on the periphery. It's a place the community goes to spend leisure time, and we need one of those. Badly.

A "living room" for the city.

betts, another thing to consider is WHY people throng to these parks in massive cities like NYC or Chicago (to escape the concrete village for a few hours). Most people in OKC have their own "park" if you will and have a front AND back yard. Very few people have a yard period in Chicago or NYC. The park is their escape from their 1000 sq. ft apartment and they don't have their own green space. Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL FOR OUR CENTRAL PARK (and have been behind the scenes working on it with various committees, etc.) but we have to figure in behavioral patterns as well. Just something to think about. FYI....the Mayor and others have always been touting a BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) system more than any other form of transit (i.e. light rail). I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we get and it runs on CNG. In fact, the new Downtown Boulevard was designed with BRT in mind.

Betts - buses are great to serve already developed areas but buses do zero to help develop areas like Core to Shore. One of the primary advantages with a fixed guide way system is it ensure transit options will be available in the future. This is why cities see tons of transit oriented development around train stations but zero around bus stops.

ssandedoc - In a future Core to Shore world there will be a stop at Union Station on a rail system of some type. Whether it will be on a heavy commuter rail line to the airport (probably not), a lightrail stop (maybe), or an electric trolley that connects downton to the river (most likely) remains to be seen. What Union Station will not be is a hub that connects high speed rail to Tulsa, Amtrak, buses, electric trollies, the airport, taxis, rental cars, and commuter rail. There simply is not enough room at Union Station, freeway or no freeway.

Just look at Dallas that Tom Elmore and others keep promoting. They used their "old" station for the "future" and now they are out of room and might need to build a new station somewhere else. They wasted $500 million on old station that is now too small.

__________________
Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

There have already been discussions between the city and the cottonseed oil mill involving the future of that location. The ultimate goal is for that business to move somewhere else. However, there isn't currently any demand for that area. We just don't have anything to put there right now. So both sides are in a bit of a waiting game.

Union Station is a beautiful building, but its just in the wrong spot to be really useful. I lived in Washington DC for several years. People there use mass transit because driving takes forever. Here, I can drive from one side of the city to the other in 15 or 20 minutes, unless there is a traffic jam. In DC, there's a traffic jam virtually all the time. There's heavier traffic at 3 in the morning than there is at noon in OKC. If you want people to use mass transit here, you need to make it so incredibly convenient that people just can't pass it up. Union Station is not, and will not be, convenient.

SAVE THE RAILWAY INFRASTRUCTURE
Published by League of Women Voters of Norman, September 10, 2008

While other metropolitan areas in the west and southwest are reaping the economic and social benefits of multi-modal transportation systems in various stages of development, central Oklahoma is tying it's future to asphalt, concrete and the automobile.

The LWV of Norman has a strong position on the need for improved public transportation in the Norman area, as well as for a system that would efficiently connect Norman with other communities in Oklahoma. Public transportation is essential to a healthy economic future and a vibrant modern metropolitan community that provides for the well-being and quality of life of its citizens. A multimodal approach--utilizing commuter rail, light rail, circulator buses and/or trolleys--must be centered on rail transit to achieve fuel-efficient, modern public transportation.

Essential to a modern transit system is the preservation of existing rail infrastructure and the development of a rail hub that provides connections for rail routes (both conventional and light rail), as well as rail to bus and trolley routes. For central Oklahoma this means preserving the OKC Union Station and its multiple-track rail yard. Preserving existing rail lines leading out of Oklahoma City in all directions is vitally important to communities throughout the state.

The Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT) plans to destroy all except one rail line through the Union Station terminal facility. If this plan goes forward, surrounding communities will no longer be connected to a nationwide rail system at Union Station. Leaving only one track would forever eliminate the functionality of Union Station and preclude the development of a modern public transit system.

Cities that have revitalized their core areas by providing modern public transportation through capitalizing on their Union Stations and/or existing rail infrastructures include Denver, Salt Lake City, Albuquerque and Dallas. These cities have also greatly expanded their economic opportunities and the quality of life of their citizens. Oklahoma City's Union Station is ideally situated to complement the on going Core-To-Shore development project in Oklahoma City and to enhance access to modern public transportation in the surrounding communities, as well as in Oklahoma City.

The Governor of Oklahoma should declare a moratorium on any further work on relocation of the Crosstown Expressway through the Union Station rail yard and its associated rail lines. The Governor should also appoint a Special Commission of citizens, public officials, and transportation experts to consider alternative routing for the Crosstown Expressway that preserves the functionality of the Union Station rail yard and its associated rail lines. The commission should report its findings forthwith to the Governor and to the public.

For more information on this issue visit OnTrac, Oklahomans for New Transportation Alternatives Coalition, an Oklahoma-based non-profit public interest organization whose mission is to ensure the future of multimodal and intermodal transportation opportunities for the citizens of Oklahoma.

I would love to see Union Station used again for historical reasons and additions could be made to bring the facility into the 21st century. But, If they are truly going to do this then some major bust ass needs to happen.

thank you, farmboy, for the exciting and very stimulating lecture about those horrid grain bins.... they're still uber ugly. anyways, on okmet, we were under the impression that they were gonna be torn down as part of C2S. sorry to get your panties all in a wad.

In the Core 2 Shore planning documents that facility does not exist anymore. Once again I refer you to Opportunity Costs. At some point the land will be worth more with housing/retail/public use on it then it is as a cottonseed processing facility. At that point the use will switch. This is why people don't graze cattle on central business district lots.

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Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

Goodness...I'm not the one with my panties in a wad. Just pointing out that these were more than just old grain bins. And Kerry I do understand the principles of opportunity costs. But this is a bigger operation than just some cattle grazing on an empty lot. It's more than the cost of what is being stored. There are a few buildings there, and machinery and whatnot. I mean,come on...have you really looked at how huge is that operation? It is going to cost someone considerably more to move that operation than one might think. Just because some core to shore documents show it gone doesn't mean much. And this is not an operation than can be plucked up and plopped down anywhere. It is crucial to this operation to have major rail access. Now...how many of those places exist at this point? Not many. And a place with the space large enough to replicate this infrastructure will most likely not have the proper rail access. That too will then have to be built...thus increasing greatly the cost. So just saying this land is worth more as residential, retail...etc assumes the cost feasibility of replicating the infrastructure at todays construction costs with the addition of rail access. That would seem to make the opportunity cost gap all the more great and lean in favor of it staying where it is currently located. Especially considering there are other, yet utilized options currently available. Not to mention the fact of how attractive is that area going to be right there close to the junction of the yet finished I-40 relocation.

I don't question that at some point that right price point may occur....I just don't see it happening for many years.
A lot of more cost feasible property will have to be used up before that opportunity cost point is met.

Mockingbird Station is LIGHT RAIL, not HEAVY/FREIGHT RAIL that "Elmore" advocates.

Ask yourself this: Would you rather live across the street from Central Park, or NYC's Port Authority Terminal? Which land is more valuable?




THIS is a multi-modal station, and there is a reason it's not across the street from Central Park.

You mean that last photo could be our new park. I love it! (sarcasm inserted)

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Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

I heart concrete barriers and endless pavement!

Or right in the middle of it.... Imgaine a pedestrian on a stroll in the park trying to traverse that, rail lines, bus lanes, parking for trucks AND I-40 to try and get to the south part of the park. Wouldn't happen. Save taxpayer money. There's no reason to spend it on a park if we end up with Union Station as a multimodal one.

Amen

Well...

After reading the nearly 400 comments this thread has generated so far, I'm not quite sure where (or how) to begin a proper response!

Perhaps a good way to start would be to consider a few of the issues Kerry raised in post #363:


I. "...the supporters of Union Station are advocating that Union Station return to the days of freight processing..."

That's true only if one is to consider U.S. Mail, express shipments and the like to be "freight." Certainly, there is ample precedent for such activity at major downtown railroad passenger terminals - business which can help pay the bills and make the depots even more useful. Historically, intercity operations have thrived upon such traffic.


II. "...in the freaking middle of a city park."

I have to admit: I'm at a loss to understand the problem! First of all, technically, even though Union Station lies roughly within the middle of the Core to Shore development area, the central park itself begins at the Station and continues north from that point. So, instead of commanding a centre position, the structure actually sits along the park's southernmost edge.

Secondly, we're not discussing a multi-track freight yard. Rather, everything which has been mentioned to date revolves around conventional North American _passenger_ operating practices and equipment.

Finally, since, by definition, a multiple lane controlled access freeway is to be constructed in the same general location, completely bisecting the C2S district, I can't see how a _train_ station - of ANY size - could POSSIBLY make things worse!


III. "...the rail facility at Union Station hasn't existed for 50 years so it is already gone."

Actually, it's been more like 40 years; but, that's not the point. It's the LAND, the extant concourse tunnels and the various interconnections with Oklahoma City's railroad lines which help make the facility invaluable. Due to various A.D.A. requirements and F.R.A. regulations, the platforms would need to be rebuilt anyway - and, in an instance like this, the station's track infrastructure itself is one of the least of our worries!


IV. "...the City is not going to support a freight process facility in the MIDDLE OF A CITY PARK!!!!!!!"

See above.


V. "Show me one city America that has even advocated such a thing."

I wish I could show you just one city, or state, or federal agency, which truly understands what an expanded and revitalised intercity passenger train system would mean for the citizens of these United States! When we find one of those, we'll surely find an example of a location able to comprehend why true intermodalism includes ALL aspects of proven railway technology.

Might Oklahoma City be found standing at the forefront?!


VI. "...3 bridges...carry the tracks around Union Station...[whereas] the North/South line at Santa Fe station doesn't have an at-grade crossing for about 2 miles."

Understood; however, the entire railroad is elevated along the Santa Fe line. Union Station's platforms, et al, are all at grade level. That makes a tremendous difference when planning for intermodal activity.


VII. "...the railroad that owns the property doesn't want a rail facility there."

Perhaps that's because the railroads who own the property aren't in the passenger business anymore and can see a quick buck (or two) to be made from the land sale. I feel certain that if a prospective buyer wanted to construct a rail facility instead of a highway, the companies would still be interested in selling!


VIII. "...the railroad is trying to get rid of the land, not build a useless rail yard on it."

But, a passenger railroad facility would in no way be "useless" - at least not to all those it would serve!

I'm afraid many people seem to be unclear as to the precise function of a modern intermodal terminal. Basically, it's a singular location where interconnections can easily be made between various services. Union Station wouldn't be a destination, per se (although its presence would make the C2S district MORE valuable, not less). Instead, it would be a logical place for a passenger to (for example) arrive from Edmond and change for the next train to Will Rogers, or to come in from Norman then catch a streetcar for the Capitol building.

Since connections play such an important role in the proper functioning of a railroad/intermodal passenger terminal, its physical location in regard to existing railroad lines becomes even more important.


I can't honestly say I appreciate being called an "ass-clown"! Nonetheless, I CAN appreciate the emotions generated by a vital civic matter such as this. I've been concerned from the outset that many folks in Oklahoma might not appreciate someone from Texas sticking his nose into their business! Yet, I promise my desire to assist with these issues is sincere, my opinions are based upon years of study and practical experience, and my hope for your future is heartfelt.

You know, no matter how it may seem at times, the debate concerning Oklahoma City Union Station is NOT simply of local importance. What happens to your railroads and their support facilities is of legitimate concern to outlying areas within the metropolitan region, as well as the entire state. In fact, considering how vital Oklahoma is to the nation, I believe the final decisions regarding Union Station will eventually cause waves - be they positive or negative - throughout the entire continent.

My fondest regards to you all.

Garl B. Latham
Dallas, Texas

The park does not end at Union Station. It continues all the way to the river, with an iconic pedestrian bridge connecting the two sections over the depressed interstate. Your version of Union Station would NOT be depressed, and it would add 300 feet of ugly infrastructure that would bisect the park.

In order to have the mail processing facilities, and to have streetcars and buses and parking for the intermodal facility you describe, it would ruin this park, even if it were just on the border, which it is not.

You say yourself that the rails and the platforms would all need to be rebuilt.

Answer me this: if it's really just about R.O.W. (which is not going away), why can't our intermodal hub be built elsewhere, in a location closer to the CBD and Bricktown that does not border or bisect a park?