air quality really ...

this guy shows that he has no clue ...

OKC was just recognized for having very good air quality

and 1 on the reasons that smog will never be an issue here is our topography and our wind. LA is stuck between the coast and the mountains ... denver is against the mountains on the edge of the plains ..

this is why they have so much smog ..

we will never have a smog issue ..

guys guys guys.

Union Station may not be in the most ideal of locations, but there is no RULE which states that your intermodal hub has to be in the downtown CBD. In fact, I would hate to waste space in the core on parking and such *which an intermodal facility will need, when it should be used on office towers, hotels, and buildings.

again, you dont have to have your intermodal in the centre of town. In fact, most intermodal facilities I know of are on the edge of downtown (Chicago - Union Station is on the edge of the loop, Denver - Union Station is on the edge of LoDo, Vancouver - Waterfront Station is on the edge of downtown, Osaka - Osaka/Umeda Stations are on the edge of Umeda downtown and Namba Stations are on the edge of Minami downtown, Nagoya - Nagoya Station is on the edge of Sakae downtown).

The reason intermodal facilities are on the edge and not centre of a CBD is due to the footprint required for such a facility. A true intermodal facility ties in Heavy Rail-Interstate, Heavy Rail-Commuter, Light Rail, Streetcar/Tram, and Bus. Do you really think Santa Fe could accomodate this? NO

The BEST location for a TRUE intermodal facility IS Oklahoma City's Union Station. And like was said earlier, the Downtown Streetcar, local bus, and taxis could feed from Union Station into the CBD and other parts of downtown. We could even move the InterCity Bus service to Union Station and redevelop the Union Bus Station since it should become extermely valuable in a year or two.

Eventually Light Rail could feed from Union Station into other parts of the inner city, once densities and TOD's develop. You;d never be able to accommodate all of these modes in a skycraper downtown CBD. The ONLY way you could have an intermodal facility in the core downtown area is if it is underground. Vancouver's Waterfront facility is mostly underground even though it is on the edge of downtown. All of Osaka's intermodal facilities are underground. Chicago's intermodal is also underground.

I don't think OKC should abandon Union Station and build an intermodal facility at NW 5th and Robinson underground - as that is the ONLY way you could get one up in the core area. I envision Union Station being the intermodal facility for Heavy Commuter Rail, Commuter Bus, and the Downtown Streetcar for starters, adding in light rail as the system evolves.

__________________
Oklahoma City, RENAISSANCE CITY!

By the way, Commuter Rail is Heavy Rail - it resides on dedicated ROW and has limited stops (almost all of which are park n rides). This is NOT expensive to build and OKC could do this now on the Guthrie to downtown to Norman corridor.

The ONLY difference from Commuter Rail and 'typical' Heavy Rail systems *aka subway* is that they Heavy Rail uses 3rd rail and is even more ROW restricted and typically has longer trainsets and platforms (although this is not always the case). Commuter Rail are typically diesel or electric overhead catenary and share the same ROW as Freight Trains.

A great example of these two technologies and their differences can be found in Chicago. The El is a subway system which uses Heavy Rail in dedicated ROW - either subway in downtown or elevated (downtown also has the elevated loop). The El uses 3rd rail and is typical of subway systems.

On the other hand, Metra Rail is the Commuter Rail line in Chicago that uses Heavy Rail cars but they are not in a dedicated ROW per se (it is separate from cars/pedestrians but it mixes with freight). Metra uses diesel and also has an electric line (via overhead catenary). This is typical of CR, but in Chicago Metra runs both ways throughout the day [essentially making it an additional 'subway' network of sorts for the city].

Im not advocating OKC to implement a heavy rail subway (it would be prohibitively expensive and OKC will probably never have the density to justify it) BUT I am advocating OKC to implement Commuter Rail!

OKC could do it NOW! The corridor already exists, and the two lines could be as follows:

* Guthrie Line - Guthrie Santa Fe station, S. Guthrie/N. Edmond PnR, Edmond Santa Fe station, S. Edmond PnR, NW 63rd PnR, *Santa Fe Station-Amtrak/CBD*, Union Station.

* Norman Line - Purcell (eventually), S. Norman PnR/OU, Norman Santa Fe, Crossroads Mall, Union Station.


The ONLY thing that would be needed would be
1) two CR trainsets, maybe 3 if you want one on reserve/mtc
2) Platforms at the PnRs (maybe also platform upgrades at some of the stations)
3) track upgrades? (this might be true but I doubt it since BNSF already runs freight on it. Perhaps we might want to double track certain areas though.
4) station upgrades/updates - to prepare for pax traffic 'again' some stations might need updating with amenities

Those 4 things and we'd have a commuter rail network in Oklahoma City. The most expensive item being the trainsets.

Notice, this is Commuter Rail - so there's not very many stops, making it convenient for commuters. You'd ride the bus or your car to the PnR or station then hop on the CR to downtown.

Notice I omitted Santa Fe Amtrak station but it could be a stop prior to Union Station. The key is, Union would be the intermodal station - where you could transfer to busses, the downtown Streetcar/tram, or a train going away from downtown. For example, in this idea - somebody living in Guthrie could commute to Norman to work/go to school at OU and back home without driving.

And since this requires a regional approach - I'd hope ACOG would take this on and partner with Oklahoma City, Norman, Edmond, and Guthrie, and the state to make it happen. It should be less than $100M to implement, most if not half of that cost being the trainset(s).

OKC itself would be concerned with the Downtown Streetcar (for MAPS 3) and perhaps it's portion of the CR network.

Tom, can you run with this idea?

__________________
Oklahoma City, RENAISSANCE CITY!

In Dallas / Ft. Worth, the Trinity Railway Express began service with 13 refurbished, former Canadian Rail Diesel Cars, but now generally handle today's much heavier demand with double-deck commuter coaches drawn by conventional diesel-electric locomotives. TRE, as far as I know, continues to be nominally mixed-traffic line, which is to say the commuter trains sometimes share track with freight trains.

In the NE Corridor, between, for instance, Boston and Washington DC, the very-reasonably priced MARC Commuter trains share that fast corridor with Amtrak's Metroliners and Acela Express HSR services.

Maybe we should lease some of the Trinity Railway Express Rail Diesel Cars for "all stops, near-regional services."

A "little further up the technology scale," Amtrak / Bombardier's unique, active-tilt technology Acela trainsets could reportedly be drawn by lightweight, dedicated gas-turbine / electric locomotives -- allowing impressive speeds on the very "curvy" track characterizing the Northesast -- and Oklahoma lines like ODOT's "Sooner Subdivision," the former BNSF / former Frisco line to Tulsa. Similar results are achieved with Amtrak / Washington DOT's "Cascades" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Cascades using Spanish TALGO car sets mated to fast, streamlined US-manufactured diesel-electrics.

At-grade rail crossings would be an immediate, but solvable problem. Lines like this would be interesting territory for some of the new GPS-related "Absolute Train Separation" signaling and train control technology. The basic elegance and efficiency of rail respond powerfully and synergistically to digital and satellite managment. Why not make our state the technological center for development and manaufacturing?

Some rather fabulous regional services could be had here with a determined effort.

What would it mean to Oklahoma's image (not to mention Oklahomans' mobility) to have the first Acela-technology trains in the nation operating in non-electrified territory on limited-stops regional services here? (And "why not?")

Nashville's Music City Star, Utah's Front Runner, New Mexico's Rail Runner and Seattle's Sound Transit trains closely mirror TRE's more recent commuter coach / diesel-electric locomotive sets running conventional rail lines.

Commuter trains, much like typical intercity trains, are, generally, mixed-traffic compatible passenger trains minus some of the comforts and decoration of long-distance intercity trains.

So -- sure -- if we had the will, we could be running any number of commuter rail services virtually tomorrow. This is arguably easier done on more lightly used mainlines -- which is why I would argue OKC to Tulsa, OKC to Lawton / Altus, OKC to El Reno, OKC to Shawnee would be easier to implement immediately than imposing more traffic on the very congested north-south BNSF Red Rock Line.

However, it's noteworthy that the construction cost of Utah's Front Runner line -- reportedly all-new track laid in part of the longstanding Union Pacific right of way --was 80% paid-for by the Federal Railroad Administration, so perhaps some similar arrangement could be worked out with BNSF on the heavily-used north-south mainline. There's money to be had -- but local leadership has to have a plan and "go for it." (Standard railway rights of way are typically 100-feet wide, offering potential for several tracks and tremendous train capacity.)

A successful start on less-heavily-used lines would certainly boost support for more expensive projects.

By the way -- if I understand the reports, at least some of Utah Transit's FRONT RUNNER commuter coaches were purchased "second hand."

It's important to get a start.

From what I hear, two or three OKC Council people really got after Mayor Cornett at yesterday's meeting, pursuant to questions about his apparent lack of progress on transport alternatives.

TOM ELMORE

BoulderSooner and others: Yes, the region's air quality status is better than most, but alas, we are a major league city in air pollution, as well.

Ozone in fact, is and will continue to be a problem for us.

Ozone readings this year already put the region in unofficial non-compliance mode. Next spring, the EPA will affirm this, and we will likely be considered a "moderate non-attainment" region, meaning that we have dirty air.

That will start a whole slew of modeling and data work that may not impact the public immediately, but will impact the transportation planning process. Essentially, it bogs things down and makes planning projects more difficult and time-consuming.

Seriously people...don't post the same thing in different threads.

I have to agree with Hot Rod.

Expansion of rail Edmond service supported | NewsOK.com

EDMOND RESOLUTION SUPPORTS URGENT HEARTLAND FLYER EXPANSION

July 16, 2008

By Diana Baldwin, Staff Writer

OKLAHOMAN

EDMOND — City council members jumped on board this week in support of expanding passenger rail service from Oklahoma City to Kansas.
They approved a resolution supporting expansion of Heartland Flyer service through Edmond and on to Kansas City.

Edmond joins a list of about 30 cities and towns in Oklahoma and Kansas that have endorsed a plan to expand passenger rail service to the north, said Evan Stairs, executive director of Northern Flyer Alliance. Norman and Oklahoma City already have taken action in support of the expansion plan. Kansas cities, including Wichita and Newton, also have endorsed the plan.

The alliance, a grassroots organization seeking support from cities along the route, wants support for launching passenger rail service between Oklahoma City and Kansas, a move they say would make Amtrak's existing Heartland Flyer services between Oklahoma City and Fort Worth, Texas, a more effective transportation option.

Edmond Assistant City Manager Steve Commons said, "As fuel prices continue to rise, alternative methods of transportation need to be considered and Edmond is fortunate to have good rail access to be a part of this transportation system.”

If the expansion program is adopted, Commons said, Edmond would have to commit to build a station and provide long-term parking to serve passengers. Tracks are already in place. Stairs estimates it could cost $5 million to upgrade the track infrastructure and up to $10 million more to purchase another train.

Last week, Gov. Brad Henry was given a letter signed by the mayors of Edmond, Norman, Oklahoma City, Purcell, Pauls Valley, Ardmore, Ponca City, Perry and Guthrie, asking him to expedite the process because of rapidly rising gasoline prices, said Bob Kemper, the alliance legislative liaison.

"The airline industry is cutting services and raising fares in order to address $140 per barrel oil,” the mayors said in the letter. "The decline in intercity bus transportation is resulting in the increasing isolation of small town Oklahoma.”

Thanks Tom for not signing your name 3x in each post.

Acid Sludge and the Crosstown
by: Bob Sands, OETA News
Acid Sludge and the Crosstown (Read and Comment)
8-8-08

The discovery four years ago of a 25,000 square foot pit of acid sludge right in the path of construction on the new I-40 Crosstown expressway is raising questions about what other hazards were missed when the Oklahoma Department of Transportation conducted an Environmental Impact Study for the project.

The pit was discovered by a work crew that was conducting preliminary borings for one of the new railroad bridges that has to be built in conjunction with the most expensive highway project in state history.

The Department of Environmental Quality says it conducted a survey of the area near the Oklahoma River several years ago and noted that pit which was originally part of the Choate Oil Refinery but since there was no indication on the surface of a problem, DEQ did not list the site on its registry of refinery sites.

ODOT has hired a company that is now pouring a special concrete into bore holes for a series of seven support pillars that will be placed in the pit of acid sludge. That concrete, according to ODOT, contains an acid neutralizing agent. Once the concrete hardens a test bore is made to determine if the acid sludge is still present. So far two of the bore holes have been treated and one has reportedly tested as clean.

ODOT also had to dig a 25 foot trench to capture acid sludge that is oozing to the surface now because of the drilling operation. The sludge is a by-product of a process that combines sulfuric acid with crude oil to remove the impurities. The acid sludge pit was apparently buried when the old refinery was closed decades ago. ODOT and DEQ officials insist it is no threat to ground water or the nearby Oklahoma River.

Speedbump!

It is a shame that the old sludge pit was left there, but the sooner it is found and fixed the better. A serendipitous byproduct of the crosstown relocation is being able to fix this problem now without further delay and greater risk. For the highway itself, it represents one of those speedbumps which always complicate a major project.

ODOT to move all rail lines out of the Union Station corridor?

I-40 Update

OETA News I-40 Update Report, 7-30-08

Engineers with the Oklahoma Department of Transportation now say another rail line will have to be moved for the most expensive highway project in state history to go forward.

In a briefing to the Oklahoma City, City Council, ODOT Project Engineer John Bowman explained that Pennsylvania Avenue, a major north south street, will remain closed until a re-alignment issue is resolved with the Union Pacific railroad.
ODOT Project Engineer John Bowman told members of the City Council that a timetable for opening Pennsylvania Avenue remains up in the air.

“That varies greatly depending upon a realignment of the Union Pacific. We’re currently working with them to reconfigure their line out in that vicinity”, said Bowman.

Bowman went on to explain that plans call for this Union Pacific rail line to be moved to the south of its current location.

What he did not make clear is that may mean another rail line will have to be added to those already being built by the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad on the south side of the Oklahoma River.

If that happens it would add to the number of lines that motorists will have to cross at-grade, which is the most dangerous type of rail line crossing.
ODOT did not bring up to the City Council, the fact their plans to rip out the BNSF lines that run behind Union Station still remain stalled after three years, before the Federal Surface Transportation Board in Washington D.C.

OH MY GOD, they are so freaking retarded!!! They only plan on moving the line, if not, more than a 100 yards away from where it is. It will still run along the northern edge of the freeway alignment. Do some research OETA!

You can't run the UP line down over near the BNSF/Stillwater Central line because then they would have to front millions of more dollars to build way more miles then they intend to. They would not be able to realign a route south of the river without having to acquire new right-of-way to get back to their main line out on the western fringes of OKC.

People are making way too big a deal out of this...

Yes, indeed. Those brilliant thinkers, those careful planners, those moral paragons -- who charged our unborn offspring to create such "triumphs" as the Belle Isle Bridge, the Fort Smith Junction and the Webbers Falls I-40 bridge-with-no-upstream-barge-strike bumpers -- not to mention the "fracture-critical bridge-on-the-current-Crosstown" -- are now sinking bridge piers into a buried lake of corrosive sludge.

After all -- the last one they built, they say, is "about to fall down."

But -- that's OK.

They figure they'll be comfortably "retired" before the latest mess they've made becomes critically apparent -- especially if other agencies help them "keep it quiet."

Yep. You sure wouldn't wanna "make too much" of something like that.

TOM ELMORE

I don't know, it sounds like a pretty big deal to me. Anytime I hear, "Oh, it's no threat to the river or water supply," I wait for the admission - sometimes years later - just how big a threat it actually was and how many documents were shredded to keep it quiet.

Solitude - can you give us an example?

__________________
Oklahoma City - The surprise your family has been looking for.

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/6084f194b67ca1c4852567d9005751dc/621c0065f3033eeb8525749b007698f6/$FILE/223086.pdf

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/6084f194b67ca1c4852567d9005751dc/2d868ac4424ab4368525749c00557aff/$FILE/223105.PDF

Boardman is not being represented well by the OKC chamber of commerce!

Mr Elmore, does dr Kessler intend to acquire the tracks? I didnt understand those references.

When will the STB announce the next ruling?

Thx

Oh god I can't wait for this thing to finally blow up.

These morons that are 'begging' for a new highway simply are running off their fears than actually using a brain.

A retired ODOT bridge engineer stated we can redeck the CURRENT crosstown for $50 million. That's why ODOT allows maximum weight trucks to run over it at free will. Otherwise they would've rerouted them onto I-240 years ago.

The people who've fought the crosstown should be commended. They understood the facts and used all their resources to bring this fraud to light. If you're scared of the current crosstown, beat ODOT into submission and redeck it and it'll last another 40 years.

Utah's rated as having one of the best roads in the nation. Why? Because they 'maintain' their current infrastructure. What Oklahoma does is beyond me. They wait for it to dilapidate so bad to the point of no return so they can build a new road 'ELSEWHERE'. Why? Because those are the most expensive projects. This is a corporate welfare state. Hardly anybody in office isn't a federal leech. But the bridge isn't to that condition 'yet'. If ODOT keeps putting Oklahomans' lives in danger like this and not maintain that bridge like they should, we'll eventually get there.

Oklahoma, one of the fews places where they'll sell their grand babies souls for a buck and still claim to be Christian.

Sure, just redeck the current crosstown, and then it will need it again in 20 years and we'll still have a blighted neighborhood just south of downtown. Good plan.

I'm not sure the growth of American cities is driven by transit, either automobile or train, anymore. If we want Oklahoma City to move beyond it's ugly, midwestern image, we've got to reinvent our downtown, and we've got the land to do it......if we move the Crosstown. This is about more than a highway or a train track. It's about changing the way we and the rest of the country see our city. It's as jbrown says, about getting rid of a blighted area immediately adjacent to our downtown, making room for residential growth downtown, which gives us precisely the kind of density we need to get rid of the automobile in the immediate area of the CBD. Density is one of the major impediments to mass transit in OKC, so I'm not sure why people are opposed to plans that will increase density, rather than making it easier for people to live out in the suburbs, which is what light and heavy rail does. Resurfacing a highway is shortsighted, and we need vision.

Again, moving the crosstown leaves us with a light rail right of way, right down the boulevard. I'm still thinking we need to concentrate on north-south before we spend any money on east-west transit, but the right of way will exist and will belong to the city if we need it.

To address your questions, blangtang:

Dr. Kessler's willingness to intervene, as he has, in this matter should speak for itself. It's reasonable to believe that he has not done so lightly. Somebody needed to do the right thing -- and as the letters from Ridley, Cornett and Schirf indicate, it certainly wasn't going to be any of them.

Our nation and our state need every inch of their valuable railway infrastructure. Oklahoma needs its businesses. Its businesses need rail service for mobility of all kinds. Plainly, incontrovertibly, the loss of rail access for industries like those being threatened today ensures (1) Higher trucking rates to captive shippers, and, (2) Substantial loss of commercial property value.

The willingness of ODOT and OKC leadership to offhandedly force such a situation on long standing local business already fighting for every possible competitive advantage in the world marketplace would seem to demand explanation.

As to a timeframe for further STB action, only the STB can say.

TOM ELMORE

hey, since you are bringing up christianity... you do realize that by calling someone a moron you are committing a sin.
matthew 5:22
But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

but yeah, call me a moron... cuz i say eff the union rail yard and bring on C2S!!! woooh hooooh!



btw, is anyone else glad TOM'S fifteen minutes is almost up??