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  1. #26
    Sid Burgess's Avatar
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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    At nearly midnight last night the Norman city council approved the new apartments at NW 36 &Tecumseh in a 5 to 3 vote with one recusal.
    While the local area did not succeed in blocking this development they did succeed in having many of their concerns addressed and as a result the plan was significantly changed from the original plan.
    Interesting. Thank you for the update. Will be curious to see if this becomes a pattern and if more developers try projects now.
    It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Was reading in the Transcript that they didn't have the outcome at press time. Good to see it passed. It also appears the developer was more than supportive in address the issues by the residents. At times it appeared that they (the residents) were more stubborn for the sake of being stubborn than anything. I do hope that the area does see some more commercial development, that they have been requesting, to help balance the area out more. However, this portion of town is more suburban than anything and likely filled with commuters going to OKC...so some higher density infill should help.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Are there any pictures of what is now to be built there? I didn't see any with the article in the Transcript this morning.

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    Because there will likely be 1000’s more higher than average income home owners being built in the NW Norman area in the next 10 to 20 years…… I would have much rather seen high end retail built on this corner property. Because this corner will now not be retail of any type many Norman residents who move to this area will be more likely to make the much shorter trip to Moore to spend their sales tax money. Many already do this anyway.

    The apartments are much better IMHO and on that point the residents did have a significant impact. So I guess you could say it’s not an entire loss for the current residents of the area.
    Other apartments are going up and apparently others are on the drawing boards for Northwest Norman.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyOne View Post
    Are there any pictures of what is now to be built there? I didn't see any with the article in the Transcript this morning.
    They had a new rendering but I don’t have any idea where to find it on line.

    There will be no west facing windows.
    They have moved the building back several feet further away from existing homes.
    There will be a 6 foot fence. I think they said it would be concrete panels?
    The far western sides of the apartments will be 2 story’s’ instead of 3.
    They have decreased the entrances / exits from 3 to 2.
    Rent is projected to be $800 for a one bed room $1200 for a 2 bed room unit.
    Many apartments will have garages with covered parking for most others.
    Their target demographic is the young professional, single, or young married couple without kids.

    They sold this as very high / or upscale project and that may well be true for Norman, but compared to what I have seen in other larger markets this is nothing special.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    Because there will likely be 1000’s more higher than average income home owners being built in the NW Norman area in the next 10 to 20 years…… I would have much rather seen high end retail built on this corner property. Because this corner will now not be retail of any type many Norman residents who move to this area will be more likely to make the much shorter trip to Moore to spend their sales tax money. Many already do this anyway.

    The apartments are much better IMHO and on that point the residents did have a significant impact. So I guess you could say it’s not an entire loss for the current residents of the area.
    Other apartments are going up and apparently others are on the drawing boards for Northwest Norman.
    If the home owners in that area were really wanting retail in that part of Norman, they would be showing it by patronizing stores closer. Right now developers see that the residents there have no problem driving to Moore so why bother?

    1000's more...single family suburban houses in typical subdivisions. Oh let me control my excitement.

    Thanks for the recap on the changes...pretty much everything the Transcript already covered.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    If the home owners in that area were really wanting retail in that part of Norman, they would be showing it by patronizing stores closer. Right now developers see that the residents there have no problem driving to Moore so why bother?

    1000's more...single family suburban houses in typical subdivisions. Oh let me control my excitement.

    Thanks for the recap on the changes...pretty much everything the Transcript already covered.
    I hadn’t read the Transcript.

    The mayor talked about the 1000’s of lots that would be someday developed in northwest Norman and the desired to keep this future sales tax revenue in Norman... Good shopping options will be need to accomplish this goal. The loss of this corner reduces the opportunists to meet this goal. It would have been better for the city’s future revenue had these apartments been located on nearby vacant land.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    A brief look at the fast food, churches and offices that are already at/near the corner never really suggested that anything higher end than housing would end up there. Glad it went through, and it sounds like the final target audience is the same as the initial target audience, albeit now apparently no one will be permitted to enjoy a sunset via a window or a balcony (or at least those furthest west won't.

    No one gets all they want. Many get most of what they want. close enough to win-win to tip a hat to all.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    If the home owners in that area were really wanting retail in that part of Norman, they would be showing it by patronizing stores closer. Right now developers see that the residents there have no problem driving to Moore so why bother?
    Wow, I don't even know how to respond to this. The whole problem is that there is no closer retail... there's a CVS, two fast food places, a Subway and an Asian place. The next closest retail is literally over a mile away. That's the whole reason this area was originally zoned commercial... Sadly, there's no more commercial land left in the area. It's all been taken up by medical buildings and banks. So I don't know where you are coming from here, other than perhaps ignorance of the actual layout of the area. There's no more nearby retail, and now there will never be any more nearby retail, except for the tiny lot that the complex carved out for a gas station at the corner.

    Nearly a thousand residents protest this development, and there are so many people in protest the night of the meeting that the council chambers, the foyer, and the parking lot are completely full of people, and the council votes for it anyway and somehow that is good governance?

    I don't see how anyone familiar with the area could say with a straight face that this corner couldn't support commercial. The area residential makeup is loaded with six figure salaries, many of the homes in the area didn't exist 5 years ago, there are tons of medical professionals in the area during the day, and there is massive, massive new development of houses occurring to the west of this location which will be completing its first phase sometime next year. The corner could have been 'the new Brookhaven Village.' That's how the area was zoned prior to last night. The whole thing is a planning disaster in my opinion and does nothing but further west Norman's quest into being exactly like the suburban housing Armageddon that is north OKC, north of Memorial Road... just acres and acres of houses with the only sizable commercial requiring a drive down to Memorial. What a horrible, horrible layout.

    I don't understand Norman at all. The council will talk until they are blue in the face about trying to create mixed use on the east side of town, but when it comes time to vote they do the exact opposite on the west side of town and ensure that there will forever be nothing but miles of houses, apartments, and medical buildings there. It's just insane.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?


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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    "High end" apartments. Just like "high end" UNP.

    Renaissance at Norman off of SH-9 has garages. I guess those are "high end" too. I guess that makes perfect sense since it's located next to Perfect Swing, which is such an attractively "high end" although whats the word I'm looking for... dilapidated... business establishment. But hey I hear someone might tear it down in the near future and build a "high end" Wal-Mart or Lowe's on that land. Glad to see that Norman is thinking like a big city these days. I can clearly see how we are the next Austin, what with all the classy "high end" development going on here.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Questor View Post
    Wow, I don't even know how to respond to this. The whole problem is that there is no closer retail... there's a CVS, two fast food places, a Subway and an Asian place. The next closest retail is literally over a mile away. That's the whole reason this area was originally zoned commercial... Sadly, there's no more commercial land left in the area. It's all been taken up by medical buildings and banks. So I don't know where you are coming from here, other than perhaps ignorance of the actual layout of the area. There's no more nearby retail, and now there will never be any more nearby retail, except for the tiny lot that the complex carved out for a gas station at the corner.

    Nearly a thousand residents protest this development, and there are so many people in protest the night of the meeting that the council chambers, the foyer, and the parking lot are completely full of people, and the council votes for it anyway and somehow that is good governance?

    I don't see how anyone familiar with the area could say with a straight face that this corner couldn't support commercial. The area residential makeup is loaded with six figure salaries, many of the homes in the area didn't exist 5 years ago, there are tons of medical professionals in the area during the day, and there is massive, massive new development of houses occurring to the west of this location which will be completing its first phase sometime next year. The corner could have been 'the new Brookhaven Village.' That's how the area was zoned prior to last night. The whole thing is a planning disaster in my opinion and does nothing but further west Norman's quest into being exactly like the suburban housing Armageddon that is north OKC, north of Memorial Road... just acres and acres of houses with the only sizable commercial requiring a drive down to Memorial. What a horrible, horrible layout.

    I don't understand Norman at all. The council will talk until they are blue in the face about trying to create mixed use on the east side of town, but when it comes time to vote they do the exact opposite on the west side of town and ensure that there will forever be nothing but miles of houses, apartments, and medical buildings there. It's just insane.
    Has any serious developer come forward looking to build any type of "worthy" retail in that area?

    You would think if it is as great as you say, especially with all those high income residents and the new medical officers, they could show there is demand for something more than a McD's. If people really wanted to live in an area that has good retail access, then maybe they shouldn't have moved into another cookie cutter suburban zone? They could have easily spent their money on a home or plot of land (to build on) closer into town. However, because they decided to move out on the fringes of town (to drive more sprawl) they are going to pout because they aren't getting the services they feel they are entitled to? Wah.

    Eeesh. I feel like I'm turning into Kerry on this whole sprawl issue.
    Hemingstein, mcca7596 and Stew like this.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    Here you go Sid. You won't like the positions from the Yea's or the Nay's. They both are only interested in protecting segregated zoning and ensuring that everything is located next to nothing.

    Planning commission split 3-3 Ľ The Norman Transcript

    I do find it totally ironic that many of the area residents are upset that there isn't enough commercial zoning in the area. Move to the suburban fringe and then complain everything is too far away. Doh!

    Thousands are protesting this? Really!

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    I said nearly a thousand people. If you will read today's Norman transcript, you will see that 835 people had signed the petition against rezoning this land. Above and beyond that there were additional folks who didn't sign for whatever reason but who didn't want to see the rezoning occur either. If you watch the KFOR video above the city planning director says it was the largest zoning protest the city has ever had. So yes exactly as I said, nearly a thousand people protested this. Or in other words orders of magnitude more people than all recent east side protests combined.

    Norman Transcript : Controversial zoning change moves forward

    As far as getting the services we are entitled to... Perhaps residents thought they knew what they were getting into when they bought real estate in this part of town because the city's own plans and zoning said that commercial was exactly what they were supposed to get in this part of town. Last night's council meeting really wasn't about approving an apartment complex, it was about the city revising plans that had always been in place for this area to be commercial, forever removing the only available commercial land in this area. On paper, prior to last night, the setup of the area looked a lot like the Brookhaven area's setup.

    Prior attempts to develop the land were all done many years ago, before most any of the houses in the area were even built. The developers own presentation stated that. With hundreds more houses on the way over the next several years (entire sections of 48th are being bulldozed and house construction is beginning) future residential growth for the area is very strong. To me it looks like a situation where the land owner just didn't want to wait any longer, and now isn't exactly a great time for commercial development but it is a good economy for apartments. Looking forward the area would have been great for commercial.

    Longer term I think it was a very poor financial decision for Norman. I think area residents are probably going to go out of their way to head up to 19th Street in Moore to do their shopping now, rather than down to Robinson or Main or UNP. Especially when you consider this lot was the last prime commercial lot on the upper west side. The mayor stated that was her rationale for voting against the rezoning.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    It’s very safe to say that money will flow from residents of this part of Norman to candid’s who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.

    When past city leadership had zoned this property correctly its pretty clear that the members of the city counsel who voted for this don’t respect the city’s past leadership decisions or do they care enough about a very large number residents who protested this or do they care about what is in the best long term interest of the city.

    They may talk a good game, but this is not quality leadership with the long range vision that the city of Norman needs.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Between this new complex and the rental units going in a mile south, and others under consideration in the general area and elsewhere in Norman, it appears there is quite an anticipated demand for more than single family residential property all across the community, and of course, there is still a lot of demand for more and more single family land tracts as well. Grow on Norman, and where ever possible, may we grow up as well. Lots of sky available for more than than typical 2-3 floors you see around here.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    It’s very safe to say that money will flow from residents of this part of Norman to candid’s who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.
    If it gets rid of Dave Spaulding, who voted for it, then by all means - donate away!

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    Itís very safe to say that money will flow from residents of this part of Norman to candidís who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.

    When past city leadership had zoned this property correctly its pretty clear that the members of the city counsel who voted for this donít respect the cityís past leadership decisions or do they care enough about a very large number residents who protested this or do they care about what is in the best long term interest of the city.

    They may talk a good game, but this is not quality leadership with the long range vision that the city of Norman needs.
    I think your premise of the property being zoned "correctly" is off. Zoning is not a static thing. It is subject to constant change as the market demands. Just because it was zoned commercial in the past does not mean that is the use that is currently best suited for that property. Here, the market clearly did not demand the type of high end retail that some desire. Anytime a controversial zoning decision is cast, people call for change in council members and most times things stay the same.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtLaw View Post
    I think your premise of the property being zoned "correctly" is off. Zoning is not a static thing. It is subject to constant change as the market demands. Just because it was zoned commercial in the past does not mean that is the use that is currently best suited for that property. Here, the market clearly did not demand the type of high end retail that some desire. Anytime a controversial zoning decision is cast, people call for change in council members and most times things stay the same.
    Once NW Norman has been much more build up in several years city leaders will look back at this as a mistake. We have seen this same lack of vision for the future over and over again in Norman. This zoning change goes against past recommendations. Yes, zoning is not a static thing, but that doesn’t make this zoning change right for the long term interest of Norman.
    The property at this corner is far better suited for upscale shopping that would easily follow the development of more high end homes in this area.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    Once NW Norman has been much more build up in several years city leaders will look back at this as a mistake. We have seen this same lack of vision for the future over and over again in Norman. This zoning change goes against past recommendations. Yes, zoning is not a static thing, but that doesn’t make this zoning change right for the long term interest of Norman.
    The property at this corner is far better suited for upscale shopping that would easily follow the development of more high end homes in this area.
    Probably the biggest mistake was zoning it residential to begin with permitting more sprawl. Exactly what "upscale" shopping is really going to go in there?

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Questor View Post
    I said nearly a thousand people. If you will read today's Norman transcript, you will see that 835 people had signed the petition against rezoning this land. Above and beyond that there were additional folks who didn't sign for whatever reason but who didn't want to see the rezoning occur either. If you watch the KFOR video above the city planning director says it was the largest zoning protest the city has ever had. So yes exactly as I said, nearly a thousand people protested this. Or in other words orders of magnitude more people than all recent east side protests combined.

    Norman Transcript : Controversial zoning change moves forward

    As far as getting the services we are entitled to... Perhaps residents thought they knew what they were getting into when they bought real estate in this part of town because the city's own plans and zoning said that commercial was exactly what they were supposed to get in this part of town. Last night's council meeting really wasn't about approving an apartment complex, it was about the city revising plans that had always been in place for this area to be commercial, forever removing the only available commercial land in this area. On paper, prior to last night, the setup of the area looked a lot like the Brookhaven area's setup.

    Prior attempts to develop the land were all done many years ago, before most any of the houses in the area were even built. The developers own presentation stated that. With hundreds more houses on the way over the next several years (entire sections of 48th are being bulldozed and house construction is beginning) future residential growth for the area is very strong. To me it looks like a situation where the land owner just didn't want to wait any longer, and now isn't exactly a great time for commercial development but it is a good economy for apartments. Looking forward the area would have been great for commercial.

    Longer term I think it was a very poor financial decision for Norman. I think area residents are probably going to go out of their way to head up to 19th Street in Moore to do their shopping now, rather than down to Robinson or Main or UNP. Especially when you consider this lot was the last prime commercial lot on the upper west side. The mayor stated that was her rationale for voting against the rezoning.
    Very good post

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    Probably the biggest mistake was zoning it residential to begin with permitting more sprawl. Exactly what "upscale" shopping is really going to go in there?
    It (the commercial property) didn't have to be upscale. 'Upscale' was simply mentioned in this thread because the lawyer for the developer keeps championing how 'upscale' these apartments will be. That was never the requirement for commercial development.

    It was just simply zoned commercial. Residents would have been happy with a gas station, grocery store, and a restaurant or two. Statements like that were said by residents over and over during planning commission deliberations. The lawyer would slickly point to prior protests against commercial in the area, and say residents were just being anti-development, but would never mention that the prior protests had to do with gobbling up all the surrounding commercial land and putting medical complexes on them. That has always been the problem... the message has always been consistent... commercial property that nearby residents could utilize for shopping and incidentals was what was always desired.

    That's why the situation is so frustrating... it's really almost impossible to come up with a scenario where a gas station wouldn't do well in the area, when the nearest one is a 7-11 a mile and a half south of there, and there are no gas stations within many miles to the north, west, or east. Same goes for full-service restaurants... same sentiment goes for grocers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    It’s very safe to say that money will flow from residents of this part of Norman to candidate’s who will be running in the next election against the members of the city counsel who voted for this.
    I would say if a "PAC," much like the one that was previously created during the Ward 8 (e.g. this neighborhood's) 2012 election cycle, were formed in a year or two with the sole intent of rebooting the entire council you would find many residents in the area willing to donate large sums to it....

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Questor View Post
    ...
    That's why the situation is so frustrating... it's really almost impossible to come up with a scenario where a gas station wouldn't do well in the area, when the nearest one is a 7-11 a mile and a half south of there, and there are no gas stations within many miles to the north, west, or east. Same goes for full-service restaurants... same sentiment goes for grocers.
    Huh?
    7/11 is a mile (36th and Rock Creek) from the north end (36th and Tecumseh) of the new apt. site.
    There's a Shell convenience store on Flood, just south of Tecumseh, about 1.3 miles east of NW36th/WTecumseh.
    There's a new and large OnCue going in at Tecumseh/Flood, also under 1.3 miles eat of NW36th/WTecumseh.
    Numerous food outlets, QSR and sit-down, and retail are within 2.5 miles to south, a touch farther to eastsoutheast.
    Fast food in immediate vicinity.

    Oh well.

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    Default Re: New West Norman Apartment Complex?

    Flood is over 10 minutes away in morning and evening rush hour traffic. There are no options north... which most of the residents in the area are commuting to and from. The 7-11 at Rock Creek is overwhelmed with business... just go observe it some evening. It is obvious that the area is in need of additional gas stations, and this is before the large developments on 48th have even completed (ECD summer). I mean blatantly obvious.

    I guess you and I just have differing opinions on the idea of what numerous nearby food options means. Sonic, McDonald's, and Subway? No full service?

    Yes I agree that Brookhaven is the west side's best option right now. (But seriously even that is kind of sad... what's it consist of, a Chinese place, a Louie's, and a salad place?). It's actually more than 2.5 miles away for the additions north of Tecumseh and also the ones closer to 48th, which are both still part of Norman.

    So you are inadvertently proving my point right? The 1, 3, and 5 mile marketing bullseyes clearly show nothing much within the one mile sweet spot for a big chunk of the far NW. Draw the bullseye over just about any other part of Norman where there is substantial population and you're going to find something within the one mile bullseye. Not here.

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