Oprah and segregation

On Oprah yesterday, her show was saying that schools today are very segregated and it's leading to poor educations for some folks, especially those going to inner city schools.

Hmmm...I remember hearing this back in the 60's. We tried to desegregate schools, and people simply migrated elsewhere. People naturally segregate themselves.

What are your thoughts?

I think you're right Patrick. People will always find a way to segregate themselves.

[Midtowner]

That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day... So she's saying that if you take a lot of black kids, and allow them to be with other black kids that they won't be able to learn?

I'm not sure I follow her reasoning???

[Karried]

I don't know about segregation - I didn't watch the entire show. I think the issue was more about money. She showed the incredible differences in the facilities of the 'poor' and the 'middle class/rich' ... horrible contrast.

The test scores were so telling.. the inner city schools were 0.5 % in Math compared to 85% in Math in the more affluent ( I think that was the percentage - it was something in the high eighties, maybe nineties) anyway, only 0.5% of these kids were testing at or above the nationwide average in math. I can't believe that.

I think it's the parental involvement (or lack of ) that contribute to the child's attitude about learning and doing well in school.

Of course, there are a lot of extenuating circumstances affecting grades and learning but I truly believe the parents need to be extremely involved.

[Midtowner]

Kids who don't want to learn aren't going to learn. There are opportunities for those kids to go to other schools -- charter schools here in OKC at least. If these kids and their parents thought of school as any more than a daycare, they'd do something about their situation.

I realize that the problem exists in other places than OKC and that the charter school option doesn't exist everywhere. Here in OKC though, there's just no excuse. Sitting in the corner and wailing "Poor me" gets us nowhere.

The end of the show actually talked quite a bit about segregation. Basically she was saying that blacks can't afford to live in the suburbs so they're left attending run down inner city schools. Oprah was saying that the blacks should have the same opportunities as the whites in the suburbs.

[Karried]

Part 2 today, again I just watched bits and pieces of it .. it is sad that certain ethnic groups aren't getting equal opportunities.. it made me tear up to hear the kids be so excited about being smart ..something that we take for granted, sending our kids to decent schools. That was not always the case for us though - one of the reasons I moved to OK was because they decided to bus our kids from a more 'upscale' neighborhood to what was truly a ghetto to integrate .. the test scores were among the worst in the nation... 72% Hispanic - non English speaking majority. We did private school for years in addition to high property taxes. (Taxes that went to the schools near our home - I was sick about it).


But now we are very happy with the schools here, love the teachers and the kids are doing very well.

Did you know we have a KIPPS school here in OK?

That school seems so wonderful to me.. they taught using music which I love. My kids learned so much through musical Learning CDs. We would drive all over town singing "Learning States and Capitals, Learning Capitals and States" la,la,la and believe it or not, my 2nd grader knew all 50 within a few weeks!

Remember hearing a song from 20 years ago and singing the lyrics and not believing you still know the words??

I truly believe in making learning fun and using imagination and exploring. If any parent wants to find music CDs I'll help search Ebay for you ..

The problem I do have is the problem we were faced with the OKC Schools back in the 60's. They were giving more money to the white schools, and less to the black schools. The government told them they had to give equal amounts of funding to both schools. If something was done at a white school, it also had to be done at a black school. Being racist like they were, the school board decided they simply wouldn't try to pass any other bond issues. That's why the OKC Schools are in such bad shape today.

[bandnerd]

My charter school was founded on the idea that all students, regardless of race or socioeconomic background, who attend that school will succeed at the high school level and will get accepted and succeed at a 4 year university. We use the AVID program (Achievement Via Individual Determination) and are the only school in the state that uses it. This program takes students who are "historically underserved," i.e., students who are first generation college-bound, of an ethnic minority, or low socioeconomic status but who also show an aptitude for learning. They are tutored for free by nearby college students, have a class during the day where they work on organizational skills and extra stuff you don't normally learn in class, and are closely followed by their AVID teacher to make sure they are getting their assignments turned in, etc.

It's a good program. I don't know why more schools don't do it here in Oklahoma.

And the KIPP academy here is great. We get some of their kids at our charter school.

Many of my students come from the "inner" parts of OKC, but some even come from Deer Creek and Edmond. There is a very diverse group of kids. However, they segregate themselves at lunch. Black students with black students, preppy students with preppy students, and so on.

The only thing we don't have is a "jock" group...that would make us come full circle I believe. But we don't have football, and that's probably where that would stem from, anyway.

Most of the time, the kids get along quite well despite their differences in background. I have two students--one who is an ADD hispanic little kid, adorable but so flighty, and another who is a traditional white-boy. They are the best of friends. It won't always be like that with all people, though.

People probably will always find a way to segregate themselves. There will always be cliques of blonde girls making life hell for the outcasts, and jocks picking on the nerds, the black kids doing their thing, and the hispanics doing theirs. Not to mention everyone else. I think people tend to cling to what they know, and fear what they aren't accustomed to.

[HFK]

Originally Posted by Patrick

People naturally segregate themselves.

What are your thoughts?

Tough one, one of the toughest we face. I don't have any children, and I don't follow primary education much, so I'm not equipped to comment intelligently on the issue.

However, as regards segregation:

First, I didn't see the show, so I have no idea if she actually used the word 'segregation'. Hopefully not: the word conjures up an apartheid-like political and social structure designed to support discrimination (Black-only toilets, George Wallace, police dogs and firehoses). I believe that segregation, at least in that sense, exists rarely, if at all, in this country. Bigotry, yes, systemic segregation, no. Using the word in discussing things like education is misleading. Of course, that's why some people use it: it can be much less painfull to blame an external force, rather than examine unpleasant alternatives that lie closer to home.

Second. I agree that people naturally seek their own kind, or at least those they feel comfortable with. These day, with racial tensions being what they are, we're too acutely aware of each other's color, and that awareness contributes to our separation.

I have no idea how things will work out in the short term, but I'm confident that, in the long term, thanks to certain biological urges, the problem of the racial divide will solve itself: the melting pot will, after a very, very slow start, begin to blend us all together to some shade of brown. Remeber Richard Pryor's line about growing up as an irish, black, jewiah child in the inner city? Whenever he went outside the kids would yell "Get him, he's all of them". Well, eventually we'll all be all of them, so it won't matter anymore will it?

In the past few years I've noticed a distinct increase in the number of black/white couples in the metro area. When I arrived from California in '84 I soon noticed that bi-racial couples were non-existent (Not that they were all that common in the central San Joaquin, but there weren't many blacks in that part of the state to begin with). I actually saw a Gay couple here long before I ever saw a black/white couple. After many years here it's obvious that the stigma upon black/white relationships is in decline. This change in social mores will solve what is perhaps our most formidable social problem.

While in the Air Force ('86?) I rented a house in Midwest City with a black guy who was one of the finest people I've ever known. He was the sort of person I admired greatly, and really wanted to emulate, although I knew instinctively that I had neither his talents nor his quality of character. His girlfreind was white, and she was cut from the same sort of cloth. They made a great couple. They were heavily involved in their church, and they ministered to the youth group. Eventually, their relationship became common knowledge among the church and, because of it, the leadership asked them to end their involvement with the youth group. Writing this, all these years later, it still hurts a bit to remember how devastated the two of them were.

Thanks for bringing up this topic: I hadn't thought of those two in years, and they're worth remembering, even if the memories are bittersweet.

Originally Posted by HFK

First, I didn't see the show, so I have no idea if she actually used the word 'segregation'. Hopefully not: the word conjures up an apartheid-like political and social structure designed to support discrimination (Black-only toilets, George Wallace, police dogs and firehoses). I believe that segregation, at least in that sense, exists rarely, if at all, in this country. Bigotry, yes, systemic segregation, no. Using the word in discussing things like education is misleading. Of course, that's why some people use it: it can be much less painfull to blame an external force, rather than examine unpleasant alternatives that lie closer to home.

Actually, she used both the words segregation and and apartheid on yesterday's show.

Segregation was seen more in the sense of the "white flight." Once they tried to de-segregate schools, whites naturally fought it by moving to the burbs.

Second. I agree that people naturally seek their own kind, or at least those they feel comfortable with. These day, with racial tensions being what they are, we're too acutely aware of each other's color, and that awareness contributes to our separation.

My wife grew up in a neighborhood off Hefner and Penn. When her parents moved there back in 1973 it was an all white neighborhood. Once the first few black people moved in the neighborhood, all of the whites put their homes on the market and moved to Edmond. Didn't take long for it to become an all black neighborhood.

I have no idea how things will work out in the short term, but I'm confident that, in the long term, thanks to certain biological urges, the problem of the racial divide will solve itself: the melting pot will, after a very, very slow start, begin to blend us all together to some shade of brown. Remeber Richard Pryor's line about growing up as an irish, black, jewiah child in the inner city? Whenever he went outside the kids would yell "Get him, he's all of them". Well, eventually we'll all be all of them, so it won't matter anymore will it?

Unfortunately, I think racism will always exist...there will always be hate in the world.

[HFK]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Unfortunately, I think racism will always exist...there will always be hate in the world.

I agree. I suppose we'll still have some sort of racial issues, just not neccesarily those that we have to dea with today and, most importantly, not one tied to our own history of slavery, the shame of which still drastically affects relations between blacks and whites and, to a lesser extent, between whites and all other races.