Time To Stir Up a Hornet's Nest....

[OklaCity_75]

I don't care what you think of immigration bill but, I think the kids protesting by walking out of school is rediculous.

I was watching these kids from Capitol supposedly "protesting" the immigration bills. I am willing to bet a dollar that 90% of those kids where there because it was an excuse to ditch class.

If I were the Principal of Capitol Hill, I would turn this event into an educational experience.

I would have walked over to the group and said you are excused for the day but here is the catch.

I want a 5-10 page essay on immigration. I want to know the who, what, when, where and why and I want to know your suggestions to the problem.
If your passionate enough to protest, your passionate enough to write a paper.

You will present it to the school board and or faculty in three weeks.
Your other options are to return to the school and receive one-day detention or you can take an excused absence with a two-day suspension.

Kids need to learn priorities. They could have done this immediately after school and still had the same media coverage and the same effect.

These kids are going to be on the clock somewhere in the next few years. They walk off the job to protest something; chances are there will be no job to return to after the protest.

[Midtowner]

They're not on the clock somewhere though, they're kids. I welcome kids (especially immigrants) taking an interest in the political process. Nothing could be more healthy for democracy. Like it or not, these kids in our schools illegal or not are going to be important parts of our society within the next few years. We can either do what we do for everyone else and help them to become successful, or we can deny them any real help and watch them end up in prison.

[writerranger]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

They're not on the clock somewhere though, they're kids. I welcome kids (especially immigrants) taking an interest in the political process. Nothing could be more healthy for democracy. Like it or not, these kids in our schools illegal or not are going to be important parts of our society within the next few years. We can either do what we do for everyone else and help them to become successful, or we can deny them any real help and watch them end up in prison.

I disagree. If they are here illegally - send them home. Deportation should be the consequences of breaking the law, not a free education and the assumption that they, "are going to be with us." If I break into a private country club and hang out, the reaction isn't, "Well, he's going to be here so..." America is NOT open to any and all. It is open to those seeking to become Americans who want to do it in a LEGAL fashion.

Are we going to get tough on ILLEGAL immigration - or not? Our hospitals in several states are going to Hell thanks to illegals using the emergency room like their family doctor. Our schools are going to Hell. Our culture is being balkanized by a willingness by too many in the USA to cater to their language rather than making sure our new immigrants learn English and become a part of the melting pot. Our prisons are already fully ONE THIRD populated by illegal aliens. NOT for being illegal (of course) but for committing crimes that landed them in federal prison. Astounding percentage - 30%!! Nobody believes it, but it's true. The figure is over 50% in California. I could go on and on and on.

I agree we should help them become successful - in their home country. Send them home and let them march in Mexico for Mexican democracy. I agree their interest in the political process is wonderful, they're just learning the political process of the wrong country. Do you think I could cross into Canada illegally, march in Toronto waving the American flag and demand "immigrant rights" and access to their health care system?

Yes, we are a nation of immigrants. A nation of legal immigrants and a nation of immigrants who came here to become Americans, unlike this new illegal wave of immigrants who want to be, for the most part, Mexicans in America.
A big difference.

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Originally Posted by OklaCity_75

I don't care what you think of immigration bill but, I think the kids protesting by walking out of school is rediculous.

I was watching these kids from Capitol supposedly "protesting" the immigration bills. I am willing to bet a dollar that 90% of those kids where there because it was an excuse to ditch class.

If I were the Principal of Capitol Hill, I would turn this event into an educational experience.

I would have walked over to the group and said you are excused for the day but here is the catch.

I want a 5-10 page essay on immigration. I want to know the who, what, when, where and why and I want to know your suggestions to the problem.
If your passionate enough to protest, your passionate enough to write a paper.

You will present it to the school board and or faculty in three weeks.
Your other options are to return to the school and receive one-day detention or you can take an excused absence with a two-day suspension.

Kids need to learn priorities. They could have done this immediately after school and still had the same media coverage and the same effect.

These kids are going to be on the clock somewhere in the next few years. They walk off the job to protest something; chances are there will be no job to return to after the protest.

Right on, OklaCity_75. My son goes to Grant, and he was telling me what a lot of the hispanic students were doing. He had some friends that were going to walk out also. His hispanic friends basically told him that it was a way for them to ditch class and make a "statement" at the same time.

If they are passionate about the immigration bill, then I agree that they need to write an essay as to what they could do to come up with a solution to the problem. If they can't do that, then suspension is the answer. I also agree that they have the right to be politically involved....but not during school hours.\

Actually, MidTowner, some of these 16 year old (or older)kids do clock in and out for work. My son knows several of them that have jobs. How they got jobs if they are illegally here, I don't know. I have hispanics living all around me, and I can guarantee you that many of them are here illegally.

Students do need to be involved politically, but not while they should be in school learning.

[writerranger]

"Students do need to be involved politically, but not while they should be in school learning."

I agree. And, if they are here illegaly, they need to be learning and marching about Mexican democracy. Keith, you and I posted at the same time, so I don't know if you read my post above yours, but I agree 100%.

[Midtowner]

Originally Posted by Keith

Actually, MidTowner, some of these 16 year old (or older)kids do clock in and out for work. My son knows several of them that have jobs. How they got jobs if they are illegally here, I don't know. I have hispanics living all around me, and I can guarantee you that many of them are here illegally.

I did as well at that age. I've been employed since being 16 and 4 days old

It's even more important then though. When a kid becomes employed and starts to earn his own way for the first time, he or she has made the decision to be a contributing part of society. As long as illegals are here, working and going to school, we might as well do our best to mitigate the damage to society as a whole.

If we turn our collective backs on them, we will force them to commit crimes to survive. Just as the U.S. would suffer a major shortage of unskilled/skilled labor if we kicked all of the illegals out (at what cost? how long will it take to locate and transport 11 million people back over a border? [and the number is probably closer to 20-30 million]), Mexico would have a corresponding shock to their economy. Not only would a vast influx of money via family workers in the U.S. suddenly dry up, a there would be an amazing amount of labor shortage, extremely high unemployment, crime, probably accompanied by famine, disease, civil war, etc... As you may know, something like that to your immediate south cannot be a good thing. For that reason "shipping them back" simply isn't a viable option.

Students do need to be involved politically, but not while they should be in school learning.

In school learning? Have you been to highschool recently? Honestly, what is ONE DAY of missed school going to set a kid back assuming that they are actually learning anything by being there?

Becoming politically involved, participating in Democracy, caring about something all trump (jointly and severably) attending one day of school in my book. In HS, I skipped for far less important reasons, and I'd imagine just about everyone here did as well.

[bandnerd]

I think it's good that these kids are taking a part in what has made our country so great. They have the ability to speak out for something, and they have actually taken an interest in something. Teenagers that are interested in something other than sex or drugs to me is a great thing!

We had students from my school go protest yesterday. There was a flyer passed around that some had gotten at home. It was in Spanish, and the kids let me look it over. They explained what it said. It basically boiled down to "We are having a protest at noon at the Capitol, students are invited, but only come with consent of your principal." And our principal gave it to them. They could be gone half a day. It would be counted as an absence but we wouldn't call them in for truancy.

Maybe we're too liberal over at my little charter school. Sure, the kids may not understand the whole thing about illegals in this country, and I'm sure that some of their parents are here illegally. Most of our kids, though, as far as I know, were born here, making them legal.

We talked about the whole issue in one of my classes, which has about 10 students and only one caucasian student. 4 African Americans, 1 Asian, 3 Hispanics, and an Uzbekistanian exchange. They all had different views on the topic, and of course we all didn't agree. But that was okay. We could all see each other's points of view, and I thought it was great they could openly talk and not be persecuted for what they said. I'm probably a horrible teacher (according to some maybe) for letting them do that.

Anyway, I'm rambling and I'm probably going to eventually lose power from the storm anyway. I agree with Mid, let the kids have their rally. If it starts to be a problem, it's up to the principals to deal with it. Ours obviously chose to deal with it in a different way than most would, and it probably worked out better to just give the kids a chance to speak their minds.

[Midtowner]

Here's a question for OklaCity75 et al, or rather a prompt for a particular type of information pertaining to your beliefs.

List giving one-sentence each everything you'd like done with immigration reform.

Ex:

1) I want a big fence;
2) I want to deny social services to illegals;
etc.

If we're going to discuss this, it'd be a great idea to be able to know exactly what we disagree on.

[OklaCity_75]

I think most you missed my point. I have no problem with the protest and the reasons for it. I do have a problem with kids ditching school because they find a valid excuse the school will have to except.

Most of these kids could care less about immigration. I would like to believe that our high schools are preparing kids to enter the workforce and/or college.

My argument revolves around one simple idea. When is society going to stop handing out privileges to kids as if they are candy? When will we teach our kids to earn privileges and accept the responsibility that comes along with them?

What would happen if you walked off the job just because a group was protesting?

In my opinion, the school in away is your employer. You are paid by the grades you achieve. The grades you achieve are cashed in later for the key to the door of your future. The better the grades, the more doors you can open.

I do not like this new way of thinking that society has adopted. Just give kids everything they want. Eventually, they will learn what is right and what is wrong through trial and error.

In the end what are we doing? I will tell what we are doing. We are creating a whole new generation of slackers who will have no idea on how to get through life.

We have taught children nothing more than complain loud enough and somebody will pacify your needs.

Why work for the thing you want when people who feel sorry for you will hand them to you on a silver platter.

[writerranger]

If someone wants to start a thread about the real issue, I'll participate. OKC crime is skewed in ways I think none here really realize due to illegal immigration.

Quick answer to Midtowner:

1. Yes. Build the fence. MUCH less expensive in the long run.

http://www.weneedafence.com/

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...586929,00.html

2. Mexico should be billed for the meltdown of social services caused by their illegals. They promote it. They want money wired back to Mexico. It's their second largest industry!

This all deserves discussion.
We either have a border - or we don't.
If we have one - enforce it like other countries defend THEIR borders.

To those who just see a cultural sensitivity training opportunity in these ILLEGALS demanding this and that from America - wake-up!! This is the single greatest threat to our national security.
Crumbling from within via a foreign invasion of illegal aliens is greater than any perceived Islamic threat. And no, that's not hyperbole, that's the sad state of affairs in this country.

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[OklaCity_75]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

Here's a question for OklaCity75 et al, or rather a prompt for a particular type of information pertaining to your beliefs.

Originally Posted by Midtowner

List giving one-sentence each everything you'd like done with immigration reform.

Ex:

1) I want a big fence;
2) I want to deny social services to illegals;
etc.

If we're going to discuss this, it'd be a great idea to be able to know exactly what we disagree on.

Denying services is not going to solve anything,

Building a wall is just laughable.

Kicking every illegal out of the country would destroy many small businesses. Besides law, enforcement is undermanned and over budget in almost ever jurisdiction.

They would have to focus on nothing but, deportation procedures for 6 months to a year to move every illegal. Not to mention most who where deported would eventually return anyway. It would be the equivalent of trying to fight house fire with spit.

Where would they process all of them the Ford Center?

My solutions are simple:

Enforce minimum wage laws. Crack down sweatshop employers.

Create a registry that would allow all illegal’s to become legal. Provided they had a clean criminal record, learned English, and became law abiding taxpayers. Put them on one-year probation if they were upstanding citizens during that time, they become full citizens.

Secure the borders by use of technology. As much money as NASA spends each year on space exploration the funds have to be out there to develop the technology for electronic surveillance of all borders. It could consist of satellites, ground monitoring and aircraft.

In this day and age, we should be able to operate a secure network to where the Government knows about anything and everything coming and going out of the country. We have to do something to protect this nation and its people.

My thinking is if the dedicated migrant worker can make it in to the US. What kinds of rogue characters are making that journey as well? This could mean more violence from street gangs, bigger problems with drugs, terrorists’ attacks or god knows what else. A foreign force could use this method to gain entry and eventually reassemble once in the country.

We have to do something to secure our way of living. We just cannot turn our back and say it is not hurting anything just let it be.

Letting everyone who wants to come to America in is not the answer. Kicking everyone out is not the answer either. Both sides of this issue need to find a good solid compromise. In the end I think that is what we will see a good solution in which everyone will be satisfied. Note: I said satisfied not happy with the results.

[writerranger]

Create a registry that would allow all illegal’s to become legal. Provided they had a clean criminal record, learned English, and became law abiding taxpayers. Put them on one-year probation if they were upstanding citizens during that time, they become full citizens.

I disagree. This is called amnesty by any other name.

1. Stop the flow - build the fence.
2. No reward for criminal aliens.
3. Begin a multi-year return of aliens to their home countries.
4. Decide that never again will we as a nation tolerate illegal immigration and a systematic destruction of our social fabric.

[Midtowner]

1) "Build the Fence"

This would be interesting to say the least. An engineering feat somewhere on the order of the Great Wall of China or the Pyramids. As the greatest civilization in the history of the world, I say it's within our grasp and ability. My only concern would be that there would be tunnels and other means to deliver illegals. Also, a wall on the Canadian border would be impossible.

2) Only practical if you imprison employers who hire illegals. If this occurs, we suddenly have a massive poverty and crime program here domestically. We'll have an instant shortage of labor and Mexico will have an instant surplus.

Large surpluses of labor are generally followed by famine, disease, and civil war. None of those three things are in our best interest in a country that is right next door.

3) See 2, and further, how do you propose that they are located captured, and returned?

4) This would be a good starting point. I think that we can be proactive in preventing any further illegal immigration. That much I think is practicable. As far as going back and removing people who are already here and working? Very costly and dangerous. Not a good idea.

Originally Posted by OklaCity_75

Enforce minimum wage laws. Crack down sweatshop employers.

Why? They have no rights here. If they don't like the way they're being treated, either go through the citizenship process, get a green card, or go home. Simple as that.

[Midtowner]

As to the minimum wage laws, I've never heard of an illegal being paid below minimum wage. Minimum wage as it stands is a joke. No one could surivive on $850/month.

[OklaCity_75]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

As to the minimum wage laws, I've never heard of an illegal being paid below minimum wage. Minimum wage as it stands is a joke. No one could surivive on $850/month.

Minimium wage is something I like to debate. I will post a new thread in the nosebleed section.

[PUGalicious]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

As to the minimum wage laws, I've never heard of an illegal being paid below minimum wage.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau's 2006 Statistical Absract, Section 12, Table 636, 1,483,000 workers were paid below the federal minimum wage in 2004. What is the likelihood that none of those were illegal immigrants?

Also, as one example, New York's attorney general went after several employment agencies who "routinely referred workers, primarily immigrants from Latin America, to jobs that paid less than the state's minimum wage."

The Attorney General's investigation revealed that every agency referred workers on a routine basis to jobs that paid less than $5.15, the state and federal minimum wage. It was not uncommon for over 50% of an agency's referrals to be to sub-minimum wage jobs; in one agency 87% of all applicants were referred to a job that paid less than minimum wage. Also, the investigation revealed that most agencies did not return fees after failing to successfully refer workers to employment, and did not provide receipts for fees charged or copies of the contracts entered with the agencies and the prospective employees. Some agencies charged applicants fees in excess of those allowed by law. Most agencies also violated the Human Rights law by illegally inquiring into national origin, age, sex and /or marital status.

[Midtowner]

First, I doubt that the resposne rate from illegals was very high. Second, the numbers aren't too convincing. If you're looking at individuals of hispanic origin, out of the 73-million people listed here, 250,000 were at or below minimum wage.

Our most likely culprit? The food service industry. Individuals are paid around $2.13/hr + tips. Tips often do not go down on the tax sheets as reported income.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do by quoting Debs. The fella was an avowed communist. I summarily reject communist principles. I further believe that society pays an individual what they are worth to society. A doctor who can save your life is simply more valuable than a stock clerk at Wal-Mart.

[PUGalicious]

It doesn't surprise me that you aren't convinced by numbers that don't support your statement that you've "never heard of an illegal being paid below minimum wage." Consequently, I won't waste my time citing any more sources for you.

I did not quote Debs because he was a communist, but because his statement reflected the Christian values I believe in. The quote was part of my signature, not part of the post; addressing it seems a bit off topic. But I'll remove it sense it must be offensive to you.

[Midtowner]

Scribe:

Not offensive. Seriously, your over-politeness schtick is getting a little silly. It is okay to disagree.

My explanations seem feasible by the numbers. First, I raise the prospect that there are probably few if any illegals reported on the census due to the fact that they would be stupid to respond. Second, the food services industry (specifically table waiters) probably account for the vast majority of these workers. It's a fairly safe bet in my book, but I'm not going to spend my time looking for a sub-minimum wage earners by industry table.

Debs' statements do reflect Christian values as does Christianity in general. The Bible doesn't seem to take too kindly to the wealthy. I'd contend that wealth is obtained today in a far different manner than in ancient times. People are able through their own industry to literally go from rags to riches. In ancient times, you were either born into wealth, or not.

I think the ancient views regarding the morality of wealth should be reconsidered, and largely, they have been.

Debs is not 'offensive' to me, nor is any communist/socialist silly talk. That I disagree with something doesn't mean I find it offensive. Communist has become almost a 'dirty word' in society. It does refer to a certain set of ideals, and on the whole is probably a more properly Christian concept than capitalism or democracy are. In the past, however, communism in application has failed to produce a successful nation by most standards.

[Shake2005]

Many illegals come here legally on a "tourist" visit and just never leave, how can you tell at a legal border crossing who is planning a visit for a week and who is planning to stay, do you want to close to the borders?

[Midtowner]

Originally Posted by Shake2005

Many illegals come here legally on a "tourist" visit and just never leave, how can you tell at a legal border crossing who is planning a visit for a week and who is planning to stay, do you want to close to the borders?

If we prosecute the people who employ them, I think the market for such people will dry up pretty quickly. You're right, there are more ways to get into the country than by crossing the south border. The only way to stop it is to remove the incentive.

[upisgr8]

Originally Posted by OklaCity_75

I don't care what you think of immigration bill but, I think the kids protesting by walking out of school is rediculous.....

What the U.S. economy desperately needs is more high-school dropouts — so desperately that we should import them hand over fist. Such is the logic of the contention by advocates of lax immigration that the flow of illegal labor from south of the border is a boon to our economy because they fill the jobs that nobody wants, produce pickers, dishwashers lawn mowers ect.

If low-skill workers were key to economic growth, Mexico would be an economic powerhouse, and impoverished Americans would be slipping south over the Rio Grande.

If we really need more poorly educated workers here, we can always rely, unfortunately, on the public schools to produce them indigenously. The real truth is that Politicians are afraid of losing the Hispanic vote and businesses want cheap labor.

What millions of other Americans want has been brushed aside, as if they don't count, and they have been soothed with pious words. But now the voters are getting fed up, which is why there are immigration bills in Congress.

[upisgr8]

Originally Posted by Midtowner

If we prosecute the people who employ them, I think the market for such people will dry up pretty quickly. You're right, there are more ways to get into the country than by crossing the south border. The only way to stop it is to remove the incentive.

Operation Vanguard in Nebraska was sort of the first effort at something like this to see if it worked. They didn't do raids anywhere, all they did was subpoena personnel records. And they didn't just pick one or two employers, they did all the meatpacking plants in all of Nebraska, so that no one of them would be inconvenienced while the others benefitted. They took the personnel records back to the office, checked the Social Security numbers, and came back with a list of people who seemed to be illegal, who did not have authorization to work. They said some of these people are legit and the records are wrong. We want to fix those people's records and the ones that are illegal, have to leave of course. They came back with four thousand names. One thousand people showed up and got their records fixed and three thousand were never heard from again. They were illegal aliens. It worked really well and it was intended to be repeated every two to three months so as to wean the whole industry off of the use of illegal aliens.

After one effort like this, the political and business elite in Nebraska went insane. The ranchers and the meat packers teamed up with the governor. The governor's predecessor, now Senator Nelson, was hired as a lobbyist to put an end to this initiative. Senator Chuck Hagel made it essentially his mission in life to see that this was never repeated and it wasn't. And the Senior INS official who thought it up in the first place was invited to retire early -- and he did.

[escan]

Originally Posted by writerranger

Our culture is being balkanized by a willingness by too many in the USA to cater to their language rather than making sure our new immigrants learn English and become a part of the melting pot.
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Ummmm, making everyone learn English does not constitute a melting pot.....more like vanilla ice cream or homogonized milk. Whatever you think on immigration, requiring everyone to learn and speak English seems excessive. I'd have very few places to visit if I had to speak the language before being allowed in.